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if you are going to buy a car in the next 3 years why wouldn't you buy electric?
A fair question, so last nite I thought this over. Why don't I see any electric cars. So I looked it up. The number of Electrics is less than 0.1% on the road here. Why? This is deep progressive area. It doesn't get any more blue. Deeply diverse, and well off. So why? Here's what I found out. You can correct me if I got numbers wrong.

I have or had 3 cars. My neighbor has 4, sometimes 5. They got boats too. Garages are full ... of storage. I see cars parked in the street every day. Too many cars. I am lazy and reached the point in life I am not going to go out of my way if not necessary. When a kid, I'd change my oil or plugs just for fun. :rolleyes: No more.

So I need 3 charging stations or one super stations with multiple charge plugs and an extension line. What does that take.

1. First convince my wife. Sorry, all the cars go, we are buying electric. 😅She loves Porsches more than me. She's the sports car nut. Her idea of an ideal car size was a 155" long MR2. Anything bigger was too big. The Cayman was too big. The 911? A giant she dislikes driving. Sound does matter. Its visceral. She can drive a MT maybe better than me. She was born to it. But for the sake of argument, lets assume we concur and get buy in. Out with the old, in with the new.

2. I need the electric planning done and architectural plans drawn up. Electrician has to come. Power is on the wrong side of the house, he has to draw up what he is going to do. There is no way to get 3 stations, maybe two or one with multiple plugs. What do I do with a third car? Move them around? That is NOT going to happen. I am not going to do extra work.

I know exactly how much it cost to do one 20 amp line drawn from the box and it was ~$700 all internal. Now

a. What is the cost of these stations? $500? $1000? They have to be generic and I am not going to buy a basic system. If this is "the thing" its going to have all the do dads (all the cool features). NEVER get locked into one car company. I've owned cars from dozen or so different car companies. I see no reason this would be ever different.

b. What is the cost to pull the line from the main power, outside, to the front of the house? This means digging up the lawn, laying conduit, going under concrete walkway, etc?

c. It needs a new sub panel. The current electric is sized to whats in the house. Its not going to support another 60 Amps or whatever. My guess is $2K easy based on a single line without a new sub panel and without digging up lawn. OK, plans are drawn up. Somebody has to buy the parts and install this all.

d. Down to the county to get the electric permit. How much? How much paperwork? Who does the paperwork? (The electrician but they hate doing that. They get a weeks worth at a time. They don't do individual permits).

Total cost for everything? My guess is $2500 easy, maybe $3K. Lawn to be dug, conduits, multiple units, and I don't buy base units.

3. Now that the architectural plans are drawn, its off to the HMO for approval. They meet once/month. Got to have neighbors sign off, go down there to drop off paper work (LOTS of paperwork :rolleyes:). They need to come out, see the lay of the land, make sure the plans fit the general surroundings, go to the meeting, get approval, wait for the formal approval letter, then can tell the electrician and whoever installs the station to go to work. These is an easy two months or more.

4. Time to call Miss Utility. Nothing gets dug without all the underground cables marked on the lawn.

5. Electrician does his job. At this point I am out maybe $2 - $3K in upfront, sunk costs. Now I got probably two ugly things out from of the house. Wife is not going to be happy. She does her gardening and this ruins how things look.

6. All done, get the County to come out for inspection. They come whenever they please.

7. Who reseeds the lawn? Now I got straw everywhere, and depending upon time of year, its takes 6 months to get reestablished to back like it used to be.

8. Now go car shopping.

9. State will rebate something, a pittance. Ever get one of those energy star rebates? Fill in more paperwork, mail it in, and maybe in 6 months get some pocket change back. Still out thousands.

10. Such a major upgrade is a capital improvement, no? Now I got to keep all these records for the basis on the house. MORE paperwork :mad:

---

Now we are live.

1. You think I'm going to rotate cars in and out to be charged? Not going to happen. Now what?

2. I take/have taken many trips. 1,500 miles at a time is common. Family is out of state, vacation. You think Im really going to depend on the internet to tell me where the next charging station is? That's just not going to happen.

3. I drive 10 hours a shot many times. You really think I'm going to sit and wait an hour or two while that car charges? In the rain, at a rest area, eating crappy food at outrageous prices, on the road? With traffic backed up in one of the most miserable places to drive, the I95 corridor north around the big cities? That is just not going to happen.

I got places to go, people to see, things to do. I have no vacation time to waste "waiting" for "electrons". You got to be kidding. I'm on a time schedule and time is precious. Time is the most precious thing we have. Wasting it "waiting"? No.

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You want to make this work for people like me? Here's what you need to do.

1. Make the entire installation effort trivial and free.

a. Call a number, and all the paperwork gets done, permits filed, pulled, inspections done, paperwork sent automatically and electronically to any states for incentives, and filed away somewhere for federal taxes and capital improvement. Don't expect me to do this. You, the general YOU, want this to happen? Make it happen. Simply.

b. I like "free stuff" as much as anyone. I won't pay all this money for these connections. Give me it all free. Let EV companies pay for it out of their "profits". Oops. Tesla has no profits. You want to establish electrons for fuel because the technology is in its infancy? Then establish it. Just as Tesla gave away charging at first, give this all away. But don't expect me to pay for any of it because I won't simply because You, the EV industry, has to sell me, the consumer. Not the other way around. And do NOT take the money from the poor to give to me. Do not tax others to pay for this. Let the money come from the companies that want to use electrons.

2. I will not tolerate waiting on the road for any electrons. Period. On the road I do pit stops on the fly. Its just enough time to pump in 15 gallons or so while the wife is in the ladies room. You're looking at 10 minute pit stops. You really think I am going to waste my precious road trip time waiting for electrons to flow? Not going to happen.

This is where the argument about charging at home falls apart. It doesnt matter if 95% of charging is at home. Its always the "last mile" that cost the most and this is a deal breaker.

You know about the last mile. Right?

That's the best I can come up with. Make it trivial for consumers. Take the profits from the car companies to build the infrastructure at housing units. Expecting the consumer to pay sunk costs is a losing solution. But the real killer is being on the road, finding those electrons, and waiting. Patience, I admit, is not my virtue. :(

Here is an article by an early adopter, Sept 2019 I see his points as valid


Most Americans aren’t interested in electric vehicles. That’s a cold fact.

people see EVs as exotic, weird cars. Certainly not for them. It means straying from a critical comfort zone. The gas-car paradigm has worked for a 100 years, it works for them now and that’s good enough, thank you.


IOW, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

From my personal experience, it’s palpable disinterest. Many times I’ve tried to educate friends, family, strangers about EVs and their eyes just glaze over. Their expression says it all: I’ll be polite and listen but I’m not interested.

Sound familiar? Don't you feel that way sometimes? You can't sell this on service costs because no one cares about services cost. They don't think beyond that monthly number. And you'll never sell it based on climate change, ever.

anyone I know who has bought an EV will never go back. You can refuel at home, no more trips to the gas station, very little maintenance, no oil changes, no toxic fumes, clean, quiet, fast, great torque — to mention a few. But that seemingly common sense argument doesn't mean you can convince others.

Of course not. See above. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Charging infrastructure is sometimes brought up by the few that actually have done the research. They typically have a budding interest in EVs but balk for practical reasons. For example, they may not have ready access to a plug at home if they live in the city. And they have a point. Even in the great EV Mecca of Los Angeles DC fast chargers (which is the only charging I can tolerate on the road) are still few and far between. And the fast charging pumps that are available are often taken. That means waiting 10, 15 or sometimes 30 minutes for a charger. That’s on top of the time it takes to charge. Do you have an hour or longer to refuel your car? I didn’t think so.

NO. Time is money. The end.

Dealerships in the U.S. are franchises. That 100-year-old business model wants to sell maintenance. EVs – which I can testify to – require very little maintenance. ...That’s a disincentive for traditional dealers.

That's how capitalism works. Follow the money. Why is it good for these mechanics to lose their jobs? How does that improve the GDP?

So why do I see 0.1% on the road in such a progressive area? I really do not know. But I can guess paperwork, regulation, convenience, etc are big factors. Plus, in real life, many people just don't care. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Their eyes glaze over for a reason.
 

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Meh, for such a well-read person, you sure have some misguided beliefs to support your anti-EV views.

You don't need an expensive charger, much less one for each EV. When we bought our Tesla Model S, we could have just used an existing 120V outlet, but decided to get a standard 240V 50A outlet installed to speed up charging. Total cost was $550, and this is in Silicon Valley where everything costs more. No new subpanels, no trenching, nothing exotic. Heck, I could have installed it myself using those helpful Internet videos you mentioned if I really wanted to save money.

When we placed our order, Tesla put us in contact with an electrician who would have happily taken care of the whole charger/outlet install, but I opted get more involved with the plan and shop around (I'm an EE, so electrical work interests me).

We're remodeling, so we just spent the past nine months at a rental with no convenient 240V plug, so we relied on 120V slow charging. That was only occasionally annoying, so I'd say even that 240V outlet is optional, especially if you're worried about needing a second new outlet for a second EV. Despite our home outlet supporting 40A, we charge at
I've never waited more than 5 minutes at a fast charger. Ever. That's mostly because home charging takes care of 99% of our needs, and on trips, Tesla's navigation system tells you how many chargers are available at each station along your route, so you can go where there's no wait.

So you can yell at the clouds all you want, but EVs are here to stay, and actually have some very real advantages for normal people who just want no-fuss transportation.

For the record, I prefer driving my 911 over the Model S, and so far the 911 has also been more reliable (various mechanical issues with the Tesla). But that's not really a knock on EVs in general, just this particular EV.

-Brett

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@chows4us I see the problem of the lack of basic life skills as an epidemic problem, or at least those of us who have them see it as a problem, those afflicted seem like they don't know any different! On top of not knowing much of anything they apply such broken logic or WAG and come up with some truly scary answers to life problems.

I have come across photo stories of home improvements or repairs that make me shudder and wonder how these people survived the project, but this isn't limited to homes, cars too have been shown with repairs that present a level of misunderstanding that is almost incomprehensible yet people post them and claim victory over spending even a few dollars to ensure their safety and that of others.


I've given quite a bit of thought to the second question here but first the education point in the first paragraph.

I found the study I couldn't find last nite:


"two in five (38%) respondents said they are helpless and unable to fix anycommon household problems (patching up a drywall, fixing a running toilet) without the help of the internet."

Why not? Watch closely


How about something more fundamental?


Why is this all necessary? My theory is that

1. Schools no longer teach shop, home economics, or any other basic life skills
2. For the boys, far too many divorced, fatherless families where fundamental life skills are not passed down from father to son or mother to daughter. That's not being "sexist" thats a reality check into life. Somebody has to teach the young.

This study and these videos are not a fluke. An entire generation has grown lacking fundamental skills. Some time ago I think I was listening to Elvis Duran and an intern was leaving, afraid of life on her own. Didn't know how to do basic household skills like making a grill cheese sandwich.

Why not?

Now you want to educate them on electricity? You want to teach adults about joules. GFCIs, kWh, polarity, anodes, lithium chemistry, how to put out a lithium fire (fire different than a gasoline fire), resistance, etc. when they can't even read a tape rule?

This just isn't going to happen for adults set in their ways or those in HS today because as far as I can tell, they don't teach fundamental life skills never mind set them on the way to an EE degree.

In regards to the concept of moving from horses to cars, its is not the same. Haven't we gone over this? Tesla is not disruptive technology. Its just electrons for fuel, a sustaining technology. People were glad to get rid of the horse :poop:, feeding them, dead horses, etc. Thats is not sure for gasoline cars. Its not even close to being the same thing.

Now onto some analysis to answer your second question.
 

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Meh, for such a well-read person, you sure have some misguided beliefs to support your anti-EV views.

You don't need an expensive charger, much less one for each EV. When we bought our Tesla Model S, we could have just used an existing 120V outlet, but decided to get a standard 240V 50A outlet installed to speed up charging. Total cost was $550, and this is in Silicon Valley where everything costs more. No new subpanels, no trenching, nothing exotic. Heck, I could have installed it myself using those helpful Internet videos you mentioned if I really wanted to save money.
You still don't get it. I'm not anti-electrons for fuel. I'm anti Lithium chemistry.

The electric service needs more power. The power has to come around the house. I presume that means conduit, digging up the lawn, and a new sub panel. There must be power for 3 cars. I would never buy a Tesla charger unless its standardized to handle all electric cars. Like I said, I just had a single 20 amp outside circuit put in, cost about $700. That's without bringing power to the front or the cost of charger, I would need at least two plugs working concurrently. If they can both run off the same charger, thats's fine. And there is no way I'm moving cars around, in and out, to charge a car. That's insane.

Besides its the last mile thats the killer. It doesn't matter that 99% of the time its charging at home. What matters is that other 5% (for me) on the road on trips. There is no way I would wait, ever. On the road, doing 600 - 800 mile days, wait 60 mins. That's insane. Traffic, weather, constructions, but lets stop for a long lunch at least twice. Not going to happen. Like I said, that's me. You do you. People are different.

As to So you can yell at the clouds all you want, but EVs are here to stay, I never said they were going anywhere.

Rather, I've said lithium technology will never replace oil, as some want to fully transform the transportation sector. The "rich nations" at COP25 have pushed back and they can't decide on "rules" after five years, and nobody wants to give money from the rich nations to the poor. This isn't made up. Go read it.

So you, and the EV blogs, can spin it anyway you choose. The numbers are the numbers. I never said EVs would go away. But lithium based batteries will not replace gasoline cars in the US, since the US has achieved the dream of energy independence. If this were 1979, maybe they would. But its not. The US is awash in oil. It has so much oil it exports it now.

Just look at the news. Iran takes an oil tanker, attacks the US embassy, gets a general blown up and???? The Dow and Nasdaq are up. Now go back to 1979 and tell me what would happened then. Remember those odd and even days?

Now do Cobalt
 

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@chows4us I see the problem of the lack of basic life skills as an epidemic problem, or at least those of us who have them see it as a problem, those afflicted seem like they don't know any different!
It is epidemic. I know of young people in or out of college who do not know how to make a grill cheese sandwich. The can't cook and forget about anything mechanical. They can't hang a picture, find a stud, or even understand simple things.

Instead they take college majors in useless subjects they can't make money in then wonder why they can't afford anything, wonder why they are deep in student loan debt, but want everything NOW. So give it to me free. Sure.

I mostly put this on the education. They don't seem to teach shop, civics, or history. Or they want to change history like they can change the past. So they will suffer and learn the hard way. I guess we all do.

yet people post them and claim victory over spending even a few dollars to ensure their safety and that of others.
I think the Internet does that. "They" want "likes" Please like me. Please praise me. Just look at "internet influencers". Look at ME!!! See the pretty things I bought. And through the internet, they can get instant, virtual, but meaningless praise. So they can post whatever, take a picture of their lunch, and think they are cool.

In fact, few people understand how things work anymore. Just look at this


Granted CA never had a draft? But I remember. This is NOT how the draft works. Students worried about being drafted. How ridiculous. They don't know how it works because probably no one taught them Civics in school. Duh. Much has changed in 45 years. Its just like large number of people actually think because the President was "impeached", he's gone from office. They really believe that. No one taught them how things really work. So sad :(
 

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The following story is true, happened today. Wife and I went to a late lunch. Sitting and waiting in the restaurant, we started talking about cars. That's common. We don't have "her" car and my "car". Its ours. When I met her I asked what her dream car was and she said "a Porsche" :oops: What? I could barely afford a beat up old used car and she wants a Porsche? How does she even know what it was? They only sold about 30K worldwide. Uh oh.

So we're talking today and we too had recently had some work done. I know the process to get the paper work done for approval, pull the electric permits, have the electrician run some new circuits, get architectural process done. I know the price was ~ $700 for ONE 20 amp circuit from an existing box. So thinking about Kmans question, we need three plugs, stations, and more power. I know how difficult it is to coordinate all this work, timing, schedules, having an inspection rejected because the inspector didn't like something (yes, it happens). And so my estimate is $3K, all in. If its too high, that much better than being too low.

She's listening and I say for two cars charging concurrently, maybe $3K. She's thinking $6K for two, that was fine. :oops: NO, for both. Her response was like :coffee: 🍰"So we can get a new Electric Porsche when its time for a new car?"

o_O Yeah, that happened.

Then reality set in about traveling. No, I will not wait for charging. That won't happen. If the car "fills up" with electrons in 10 minutes? That might happen. But now? No way. Once on the open road, I don't stop other than for the little boys room.

o_O:cautious: Well, we talked about it. And all because Kman asked that question. I think I'll go sleep now. I'm getting drowsy .... Come back in three years.🛏
 

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In three years would I buy one? I am open to electrons for fuel if I lived in an urban area, never drove outside of the city, needed a tiny car for some errands only, I could see owning a tiny commuter $25K Electric car, provided I could plug it in wherever I lived. But I don't. In the suburbs, life is much different. But I can see those that live in inner cities believing the rest of the country doesn't exist.

I am where the blue is deep, deep. Its so deep the earth and sky are the same color. Money (generally county wide) is not an issue. My wildlife sightings of Teslas has maybe gone up 300% in the last year, from maybe 2 to 6. 1 X that lives nearby, the others S. No 3 that I recognize. People just don't buy them. EV parking spots are empty. Why not? Again, gcurnew nailed it. I can't be bothered with spending money on a "charger". finding where to put it, multiple cars, or worrying about it where to charge on the road. OK, I'm lazy. I know there is a gas station everywhere. And I reached a point in life I ain't going to do any unnecessary work, not use a smart phone.

BTW, did you see the countries at COP25 couldn't agree on much of anything?


They can't decide on the rules. They know its a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor. Its not different than subsidies but subsidies are worse. Who buys the EVs? The rich. They take money earned from the poor and give to the rich. The poor can't afford any new car never mind an expensive electric car. But the rich take advantage of those subsidies. In this case, the "rich" countries said "no".

"Brazil, Australia and Saudi Arabia, defended loopholes and opposed commitments to enhance climate action."

and this? China and India insisted on the delivery of finance and support promised by rich countries

China's GDP, as a single country, is second only to the US. And they are poor?

So all these countries can't even decide on rules from 2015. Sounds pretty bad to me and the US isn't even involved. So you got pushback from US consumers, pushback from the rich countries, where will this end. Telling anyone you are going to take money from them for "a cause" won't end well.

And I said before, since the US is energy independent, none of this will ever happen. There won't be massive penetration into the US markeplace. Nobody gives up independence to become dependent upon another nation.

Iran seizes Oil tankers and no one cares. Top Iran general killed, stock markets barely blip. If this were 1973, what would have happened? Energy, and who owns it, matters. Exactly who owns those Rare Earths and Lithium? I remember, not the US.

Think real hard about your smoking example. Young people know, they have seen, they will die. They don't care. They do what they want. For climate change, there is no dying people in hospitals, no graves, no tangible anything. Just rhetoric.

Its an impossible sell, and thats what you see. They can't sell it. Governments will come and go. Policies will change, back and forth, but until the time comes people see dead bodies they can touch, feel and see "this people dies cause of climate change", and actually see a visible tie-in, not vague rhetoric, nothing will change. People are people and even then, if it happens, just like smoking, some won't care.
Chows, I am talking about your next daily driver, why would you not buy an EV as your next daily driver regular use car? You said if you lived in the city - Do you think EVs work in the city only? You mentioned tiny car for errands - No I am talking regular sized car, regular errands, your day to day regular car, your daily driver. Why not an EV?

Please don't tell me it is because you will need to install a wall charger in your garage because you said you were lazy, if you are lazy then you do NOT want to make trips to the gas station. Lazy is pulling into your garage, taking 5 seconds to plug in and then forgetting about it until morning when you unplug and go about your daily routine. Installing a wall charger will allow you to maximize your laziness :) So again, I'd like to know why NOT an EV?
 

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Something to watch while you are installing your wall charger:

Speaking of wall chargers, for $1200 I had an electrician run the wiring from my main panel to a brand new sub panel in my garage with a 100amp circuit. Off of that 100amp circuit I ran a Tesla Wall Charger, a NEMA 14-50 plug, and a standard 110 outlet, all on their own breakers in the sub panel box (additional breaker in the main panel). I have charged 2 Teslas at the same time, one with the wall charger and one with the NEMA 14-50 without tripping any breakers, without any issues and both cars would easily recharge overnight, usually recharged within 2 hours. So I'm not buying this argument that it takes $3k per car to set up a charging solution. In fact among all my Tesla friends I know of no one who has paid anywhere close to $3k for a charger install, in fact some have done it themselves, most pay around $1000-$1500 all-in for equipment and electrician work.

Of course there are exceptions such as homes with older panels that are maxed out and those owners will have to figure out the options that work best for them.

Speaking of wall chargers there was a new one released at CES yesterday that not only was a wall charger but it also an AC to DC inverter that allows you to use your EV's battery as a home battery backup system - think Tesla Power Wall. It is more expensive, about $4K, but that's less than the cost of a charger plus power wall so for those who want to shift their electricity usage and lower their electricity costs or simply have a battery backup for their home, it is a good solution. Evidently if you sign an agreement with your local utility you can even feed back into the grid at peak times. Most people I know using power walls are shifting their electricity usage to save money, for example charging the power wall when electricity if 4 cents/kW and then using the power wall instead of the grid when electricity is 35 cent/kW thereby reducing their overall spend. Of course those with solar panels can reduce their costs even more and essentially store "free" electrons from the Sun for use overnight, etc.
 

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Yes, it's a common myth that EV charging puts a big strain on the electrical system, requiring trenching and new power hookups to handle the extra needs. Not true in general.

An electrical system that can handle an electric dryer can handle a couple EVs. We have our Tesla configured to charge starting at 11pm each night at a rate of about 4kW. That's comparable to an electric dryer (which we don't run that late at night, so usage isn't additive), and generally tops up the Tesla battery in 2-3 hours given our daily use. If we had a second EV, I could configure both to charge at a lower rate, like 2.5kW, and still have both easily topped off overnight without any extra strain on the electrical system. Of course, our house has a 200amp main panel, so we can handle faster charging, but the point is most people would be fine even with a smaller main panel.

-Brett


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Maybe it's time to stop painting ICE as the primary villain, and electric cars as the saviours of the planet. As is often the case, while chasing down one problem another one rears its head and bites you in the a**.
Dawn of civilization. Maybe 500,000 - 1,000,000 humans live on the whole planet. Wow! We have fire and all those woods around. For how long will we have enough wood to run fires? Virtually limitless!

Dawn of industrial revolution. Maybe 700 million humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see that coal thing? So much energy density, burns way hotter than wood and allows for things to MOVE under that power! For how long will we have enough coal to run things? Virtually limitless!

Dawn of Industry 2.0 Maybe 1.2 billion humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see that thingy "Earth Oil"? So much more portable and energy dense than coal! How much of it we have? Man, it is seeping out of the ground all by itself. It is literally dirt cheap and virtually limitless!

Dawn of Industry 4.0 Close to 8 billion humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see the progress solar panels made in the last 15 years! We are close to energy recuperation density to power everything with electrons harnessed from the Sun. Solar energy is getting cheaper by the hour and it is virtually limitless!

Sounds familiar? Wouldn't it be good if just ONE mouthpiece asked a question "What will happen when the energy for 15 billion humans gets harnessed from the Sun and gets sucked into a black hole (solar panels) instead of heating the ground or getting reflected into atmosphere?"

Now you know what it feels like to be a realist in the room full of psychotic optimists.
 

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Dawn of Industry 4.0 Close to 8 billion humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see the progress solar panels made in the last 15 years! We are close to energy recuperation density to power everything with electrons harnessed from the Sun. Solar energy is getting cheaper by the hour and it is virtually limitless!
Dyson Sphere. Big one.
 

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Ok, maybe you need more detail to understand my POV.

First, any argument about the amount of power isn't relevant. Anyone thinking tech doesn't change rapidly hasn't paid attention to the last 20 years. If you are charging at 240V today and drawing whatever power, you must know that "tomorrow" new tech will arrive allowing faster charging at higher rates.

You do not build to today's standard. You build new things for tomorrow. So worrying about todays concurrent draw is short sighted. I don't want to charge at 240. I want 480. 800 would be better but the cost of that costs what a GT2RS cost. Besides, in many parts of the country, using electric is "cheaper" off hours. "They" want you to use electric at night, not during the day when everyone is at work, people load the washer, dryer, and dishwasher with those fancy built in timers today to run the major power sucking devices at night, exactly at the same time that fancy EV charger is running. We have no oil or gas furnaces its all giant electric toasters for heat. The temperature drops below 20 at night, the exact same time the other major energy sucking devices might be works, so isn't the giant toaster making the house warm on those cold winter nights. ALL the power is working at night in the winter, not during the day when no one is home.

Think of expansion like your Porsche engines. You build in headroom. You know very well there is headroom in that 3.4L or whatever engine (3.8L in that GT4) but Porsche intentionally pulled the HP back to not compete with the 911. AND you know there is more in there to allow for expansion for next years power bump. They don't give it all to you on day one. Its overengineered.

Same thing. IMO using the existing power is short sighted. You build for 20 years from now, not for next week. So you putting in a 100 amp sub panel makes sense. Not doing that makes no sense to me considering there are those that want the entire transportation sector to change.

Onward

So I'm not buying this argument that it takes $3k per car to set up a charging solution. In fact among all my Tesla friends I know of no one who has paid anywhere close to $3k for a charger install, in fact some have done it themselves, most pay around $1000-$1500 all-in for equipment and electrician work.
I think you misread. My last comment was " so my estimate is $3K, all in. If its too high, that much better than being too low." My wife misunderstood that as $3K per car. OK, now why $3K?

I can believe $1500 inside a garage. I have none. Around here maybe 50% none. 25% one car, 25% two car. Its too warm in the winter to worry about serious snow except maybe once a decade and too cold in the summer to worry about desert type heat. Sort of a goldilocks zone.

There are waterproof models like


In the end, this is going to be $1K easy. Do I need two? I need to charge two cars. The entire point of this all in to get rid of all oil. I need it for 3 cars. Is one station going to charge two cars at the same rate? There is no way I'm moving cars in and around nor turn down the juice because I didn't plan ahead with headroom. If I did that I would not be doing due diligence in planning. You plan for tomorrow, not for today.


$900 48 AMP and a Pedestal is $700 Allow enough power to expand. I don't want 240V, I want 480V charging.

All utilities are underground. Power box is side of house near the back. It has to come to the front of the driveway. They lines can go underground, around lawn, under walkway, to other side to front of driveway OR they can pull some from the power box, through basement to front of house but STILL they need to go underground between wall of front of house to front of driveway. Driveway does not butt up against the house.

No matter how lines are pulled, they WILL be underground, I assume in conduit.

I'm still thinking $3K is cheap. I know exactly how much electricians cost here. Its $100 just to show their face never mind do anything. Pulling one 20 Amp circuit from that box, through basement, to front of house, similar to this, cost about $700. Another 100 Amp sub panel is a minimum for future expansion.

Different parts of country. Things cost different.

Of course there are exceptions such as homes with older panels that are maxed out and those owners will have to figure out the options that work best for them.
Not worried about that.

Speaking of wall chargers there was a new one released at CES yesterday that not only was a wall charger but it also an AC to DC inverter that allows you to use your EV's battery as a home battery backup system - think Tesla Power Wall. It is more expensive, about $4K, but that's less than the cost of a charger plus power wall so for those who want to shift their electricity usage and lower their electricity costs or simply have a battery backup for their home, it is a good solution.
I saw that. You know how many people have solar panels here? I have seen exactly two within say 5 mile radius. TWO. Between that and EVs, there is just no interest here. The number of electric cars on the road is so little as to be, essentially, nothing. Why? I have no idea. Like I said, its not average household income nor is the area politically against anything environmentally friendly. Its the exact opposite. But I don't know why no one buys them or into all the solar panel thing.

Chows, I am talking about your next daily driver, why would you not buy an EV as your next daily driver regular use car? You said if you lived in the city - Do you think EVs work in the city only? You mentioned tiny car for errands - No I am talking regular sized car, regular errands, your day to day regular car, your daily driver. Why not an EV?

Please don't tell me it is because you will need to install a wall charger in your garage because you said you were lazy, if you are lazy then you do NOT want to make trips to the gas station. Lazy is pulling into your garage, taking 5 seconds to plug in and then forgetting about it until morning when you unplug and go about your daily routine. Installing a wall charger will allow you to maximize your laziness :) So again, I'd like to know why NOT an EV?
When I said I could see in "in the city" I was speaking from a POV of being retired or student living in a city with no need to travel. Been there, done that, worked and lived in the "big city" hated it. You don't have a nice car in the city. You own a beater with a sign in the window saying "no radio". No place to park, tiny underground garage spaces, etc.

I was assuming "all in". Now you are talking about just one car. Well, if you read post 1346, my wife didn't blink at the idea of putting all this stuff in. There are valid arguments of being lazy. I said

Come back in three years.🛏

But that's not all in. Thats a half-*** approach. Thats not a true believer. Its all in or nothing at all.

And lastly, there's this. All through it might not sound like it, I'm the crazy early adopter that takes the losses. I'm the one who buys a HD TV and nothing on TV is in HD. And bought 4K and to date there are still no 4K network TV (some on Amazon but few). This tech is advancing way to quick. Whatever exists today is going to be obsolete next year. This might be the future. Not as flammable, longer range. But this doesn't change I'm still anti-lithium. No natural resources means it will never take over the transportation sector.

 

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Dyson Sphere. Big one.
We are heavily off topic, I will be short.

If electric anything was supposed to save planet Earth , why is nobody asking what will happen when imbalance hits and amount of radiation absorbed on surface today and reflected from poles to atmosphere heavily changes? That was the point, just like we didn't ask in previous 3 instances. Each one of them becoming ridiculous when number of humans on the planet using that resource drastically changed.

Pointing to solution to kill off 90% of humans as possibly better solution (to save planet Earth) than anything else proposed. That's all.
 

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I have come across photo stories of home improvements or repairs that make me shudder
True story. In the last year or so I've changed out all the major appliances. I've observed the installation guys. This is just an observation and anecdotal. The older guys know what they are doing. They have all the tools they need in their tool belt or get it from their truck.

One thing we did we get a new fridge. Both the old and new are too big to fit in a standard inner doorway so its standard practice to take off the fridge doors. Then it fits. So some young guys were taking the doors off. They use a cordless drill and some bits. Went well until it didn't. They didn't have the right socket.

How is that possible? :rolleyes: If this is your job, how can you not have a variety of sockets?

My guess it they just do as told and do not innovate of think beyond that. In all the installations they have done, they never came up against a bolt that was not the socket on their cordless drill?
 

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I've given quite a bit of thought to the second question here but first the education point in the first paragraph.

I found the study I couldn't find last nite:


"two in five (38%) respondents said they are helpless and unable to fix anycommon household problems (patching up a drywall, fixing a running toilet) without the help of the internet."

Why not? Watch closely


How about something more fundamental?


Why is this all necessary? My theory is that

1. Schools no longer teach shop, home economics, or any other basic life skills
2. For the boys, far too many divorced, fatherless families where fundamental life skills are not passed down from father to son or mother to daughter. That's not being "sexist" thats a reality check into life. Somebody has to teach the young.

This study and these videos are not a fluke. An entire generation has grown lacking fundamental skills. Some time ago I think I was listening to Elvis Duran and an intern was leaving, afraid of life on her own. Didn't know how to do basic household skills like making a grill cheese sandwich.

Why not?

Now you want to educate them on electricity? You want to teach adults about joules. GFCIs, kWh, polarity, anodes, lithium chemistry, how to put out a lithium fire (fire different than a gasoline fire), resistance, etc. when they can't even read a tape rule?

This just isn't going to happen for adults set in their ways or those in HS today because as far as I can tell, they don't teach fundamental life skills never mind set them on the way to an EE degree.

In regards to the concept of moving from horses to cars, its is not the same. Haven't we gone over this? Tesla is not disruptive technology. Its just electrons for fuel, a sustaining technology. People were glad to get rid of the horse :poop:, feeding them, dead horses, etc. Thats is not sure for gasoline cars. Its not even close to being the same thing.

Now onto some analysis to answer your second question.
No I'm not asking people to be taught about Joules or Anodes or Lithium chemistry, just the BASICS like "how much does it really cost to buy a Tesla" - Answer: RTFW (read the F'n website), or "can I buy a used Tesla? if so, where?" those don't require degrees in chemistry or electricity, just basic fundamentals. But I get your point, if almost 40% of people don't know how to use a tape measure we are in for a world of hurt...
 

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You still don't get it. I'm not anti-electrons for fuel. I'm anti Lithium chemistry.

The electric service needs more power. The power has to come around the house. I presume that means conduit, digging up the lawn, and a new sub panel. There must be power for 3 cars. I would never buy a Tesla charger unless its standardized to handle all electric cars. Like I said, I just had a single 20 amp outside circuit put in, cost about $700. That's without bringing power to the front or the cost of charger, I would need at least two plugs working concurrently. If they can both run off the same charger, thats's fine. And there is no way I'm moving cars around, in and out, to charge a car. That's insane.

Besides its the last mile thats the killer. It doesn't matter that 99% of the time its charging at home. What matters is that other 5% (for me) on the road on trips. There is no way I would wait, ever. On the road, doing 600 - 800 mile days, wait 60 mins. That's insane. Traffic, weather, constructions, but lets stop for a long lunch at least twice. Not going to happen. Like I said, that's me. You do you. People are different.

As to So you can yell at the clouds all you want, but EVs are here to stay, I never said they were going anywhere.

Rather, I've said lithium technology will never replace oil, as some want to fully transform the transportation sector. The "rich nations" at COP25 have pushed back and they can't decide on "rules" after five years, and nobody wants to give money from the rich nations to the poor. This isn't made up. Go read it.

So you, and the EV blogs, can spin it anyway you choose. The numbers are the numbers. I never said EVs would go away. But lithium based batteries will not replace gasoline cars in the US, since the US has achieved the dream of energy independence. If this were 1979, maybe they would. But its not. The US is awash in oil. It has so much oil it exports it now.

Just look at the news. Iran takes an oil tanker, attacks the US embassy, gets a general blown up and???? The Dow and Nasdaq are up. Now go back to 1979 and tell me what would happened then. Remember those odd and even days?

Now do Cobalt
Chows you are still way off base with your exaggerated rate of charging for the estimated 5% of the year you take cross country trips. 10% of the year is 36.5 days most years, 36.6 this year :) So half of that is 18 days you are driving across country each year. Really? I drive a lot, but my longest drive across country was maybe 5 or 6 days of driving. Maybe it is because I can get anywhere in the country in 2 days, 3 at most. So even if I drove 3 days out and 3 days back for a trip that would still be 3 very long and very far cross country trips in a year. I just don't drive that, neither do 99.9999% of people in this country. I think it is more reasonable to say that you drive maybe 1% or 2% of the year driving cross country on road trips., not 5%

Even if we assume the 5% for the moment, you are still way off on your estimates of your "time wasted", nor are you accounting for time wasted on gas powered road trips.
Do you ever stop to go to the bathroom? If you are truly driving 500-800 miles in a day, even after a 70mph average that's 7-11+ hours of driving. Maybe your bladder is better than mine, but I need to use the facilities on road trips.
Do you ever stop for food? Are you only eating food thrown at you through a window or do you go in and sit down? How long does that take to get served, eat your meal, pay the check and get going again?
Do you stop for gas? Not only are you stopping for gas on road trips, but you are stopping for gas what once or twice a week all year long, how much wasted time does that add up to?
You simply are not comparing wasted time to wasted time or apples to apples.

Now let's talk about charge times. On road trips my charge times range between 20 and 40 minutes depending on distance traveled, weather conditions, distance to next supercharger, etc. If I have to stop and charge on the longer end, say 40 minutes, then I'm going to eat food at that stop so whether my gas car sits idle in the parking lot while I eat or my electric car refuels itself while I eat makes no difference, the charge time is never exceeding the food consumption time. Even if I go to a fast food spot and eat inside if that takes 30 minutes and I'm charging for 40 then I've got 10 minutes to burn. That goes pretty quickly when I am returning phone calls or texts, checking the news, weather, sports, etc. In fact there have been some times where I charge longer than I need to by accident because I get caught up in something else I am doing. It isn't wasted time, I'm just time shifting some activities.

Finally on charge times I have NEVER had to charge for an hour while on a cross country road trip. I think the longest I ever charged was just over 45 minutes and that's because I chose to as I wanted to have an extra buffer of range. Sort of like topping off a gas tank even if you don't need to.

See the problem with your whole argument is that it is based on speculation and bad data. If you actually took a Tesla on a road trip you would discover for yourself how easy and convenient the trip is. I can even cite you an example from last weekend. Last weekend I was meeting someone from Minneapolis in Des Moines, Iowa. I was driving up from Kansas. Our distances were nearly identical when we plotted it out on Google maps, I think they had about 30 more miles to drive than I did. We left at almost the exact same time. I decided to stop and charge in Bethany, MO at the supercharger station, use the facilities, get something to drink, respond to some texts, etc. and spent about 20 minutes there total. Why? Well for one I really needed to use the facilities but for two it was cold and I was driving fast, both of which burn battery faster. Could I normally make KC to Des Moines on a single charge? Yes, I would normally not need to stop at all but given the conditions I decided getting a little extra charge up would make sure that I arrived in Des Moines with plenty of charge remaining. I then drove the rest of the way to Des Moines and decided to hit the supercharging station there as well so I could have plenty of charge to run around town all day and get back to Bethany, MO on my return trip. I had time to charge up for another 20 minutes while I waited on them to get to Des Moines and meet for lunch before we started our tour of the city. They drove non-stop with a gas car, yet I was there first even when choosing to stop and charge when I didn't really have to but would combine with something else like using the facilities, getting something to drink, or killing time waiting on someone else to arrive. This is a real world scenario, not a hypothetical. If I felt like an electric car was a hindrance on a road trip I wouldn't take it, but from my actual driving an electric car across country experience I don't feel that way at all.

The facts bear out that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill based solely on speculation and not real world experience. You are going to have to find a better reason for your next daily driver NOT to be an EV or we are going to start thinking that you are still shorting Tesla stock. :)
 

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Dawn of civilization. Maybe 500,000 - 1,000,000 humans live on the whole planet. Wow! We have fire and all those woods around. For how long will we have enough wood to run fires? Virtually limitless!

Dawn of industrial revolution. Maybe 700 million humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see that coal thing? So much energy density, burns way hotter than wood and allows for things to MOVE under that power! For how long will we have enough coal to run things? Virtually limitless!

Dawn of Industry 2.0 Maybe 1.2 billion humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see that thingy "Earth Oil"? So much more portable and energy dense than coal! How much of it we have? Man, it is seeping out of the ground all by itself. It is literally dirt cheap and virtually limitless!

Dawn of Industry 4.0 Close to 8 billion humans live on the planet. Wow! Did you see the progress solar panels made in the last 15 years! We are close to energy recuperation density to power everything with electrons harnessed from the Sun. Solar energy is getting cheaper by the hour and it is virtually limitless!

Sounds familiar? Wouldn't it be good if just ONE mouthpiece asked a question "What will happen when the energy for 15 billion humans gets harnessed from the Sun and gets sucked into a black hole (solar panels) instead of heating the ground or getting reflected into atmosphere?"

Now you know what it feels like to be a realist in the room full of psychotic optimists.
Let me be very specific, I never said that EV's are the savior of the planet. What I did say is that they are better for the planet than gas cars. They are more energy efficient and can be powered from renewable sources like sun, wind, nuclear fusion, etc. :) Would there be an impact of solar panels being on roofs in terms of absorbing heat (although roofs absorb heat and radiate it away at night just like solar panels do) and an impact of lower reflected light from say a black solar panel vs a brown roof? Sure, but that impact is far far far far less than the impact of dumping more carbon into the atmosphere. Just ask Venus. :)

For the record I also like Dyson spheres but it makes those on the outside a lot colder... :)
 

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Maybe it's time to stop painting ICE as the primary villain, and electric cars as the saviours of the planet. As is often the case, while chasing down one problem another one rears its head and bites you in the a**. In the end, Big Data might be what makes the planet uninhabitable.

Yes lots of things use electricity including Bitcoin farms! The article cited is incorrect in asserting that autonomous cars require a constant stream of data to stay on the road. That's simply not true, but I get the point they are making that more and more technology means more power needed to run it all.
 

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No I'm not asking people to be taught about Joules or Anodes or Lithium chemistry, just the BASICS like "how much does it really cost to buy a Tesla" - Answer: RTFW (read the F'n website), or "can I buy a used Tesla? if so, where?" those don't require degrees in chemistry or electricity, just basic fundamentals. But I get your point, if almost 40% of people don't know how to use a tape measure we are in for a world of hurt...
Your idea of what basic education should be made me laugh, teach them just what you want them to know to sell your point, or in this case a Tesla...
 
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