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And all us boys raised on the Prairies are laughing our butts off. Or maybe that’s just the friggen cold!

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I hear ya, and you know it isn't cold here at all, right now +0.5C and that's the problem, the white stuff is as heavy as cement and doesn't blow away in the wind!

BTW and FWIW, born in Calgary, lived in Red Deer and worked in Edmonton, how does that saying go, "In my day I remember walking to school in the snow, uphill in both ways..." ;)
 

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I went to the Tesla website to spec out a Model 3, for around town. Middle car spec came to $56K. There are no credits. There are some electricity plans for off peak charging. Wife says it makes sense to just plug in at home, but doesn't like the car doesn't go vroom. The following is relevant. Looks like 2019 was a bad year for EV sales


only 325,000 plug-in passenger vehicles were sold, down 6.8% from 349,000 in 2018.

That doesn't sound good

“The number of battery-electric models available more than doubled last year, but EV sales didn’t budge much. That’s troubling,”

I wonder why? Could it be the bribes (I mean credit) are disappearing? For a $56,000 car, a $7500 bribe (I mean credit) matters. If the state helps, that's better. The provide 4 reasons: range, cost, price of gas, and style. Cost and price of gas matters. They cost too much. People don't care about TCO. They care about monthly payments.

The financial damage from EV overreach could be severe.

:unsure: so if the US car brands don't sell, does that mean the US companies have to be "bailed out again" and this is because why? Poor analysis of what consumers want?

The numbers in the United States look especially grim. Tesla remains the exception. ...Some analysts think buyers don’t necessarily want an electric car when they buy a Tesla — they primarily want a Tesla, which has replaced the latest iPhone as the coolest accoutrement in Silicon Valley"

If that analysis is true, then the US EV market is in big trouble. Huge trouble. All the cool kids will move onto the next cult item. There is a lot more interesting analysis in here, and its not the EV blog type cheer leading, more like an unbiased view of the US marketplace. Pay attention to comments like:

"The No. 2-selling EV was the Toyota Prius Prime plug-in hybrid, at 15,708 cars — and its sales fell 43% from 2018, ... Those cars were widely considered “compliance” vehicles, built to please regulators and lose as little money as possible"

The entire German EV market is comprised of "compliance" vehicles. So back to the top, talking over a Model 3. Why aren't people buying them? I can say this, at least for me (besides the fact I am not in the market for a new car).
  1. Gas really is cheap and gas stations everywhere. No need to depend upon any computer/smartphone any thing like that. Whereas around 2010/2011 I actually had to allocate money for gas, today its cost less than lunch for two.
  2. Its not the tax credits. The car just cost too much. You can buy a car for $25K, throw it away in 4 years, and buy another and still be cheaper than $56,000. And lets not forget the sunk cost on the charger. They are way too much money. Right now, a middle of the road model 3 is way out of line with the middle class.
  3. Hassle of the sunk cost. No matter what the cost, work needs to be done.
  4. I think the LA Times analysis of why Teslas are selling vice the other electron fueled cars is spot on. While discussing this, it never occurred to me to buy any other brand than Tesla, including Porsche. Tesla does have the infrastructure, the cult, the passion among the people, and just like the Apple cult, that is a "thing".
Which leads us back to Kmans original question, some time later. The Taycan is IMO in big trouble in the US no matter what they hype. Massively overpriced Turbo(S) models. From what I hear, most deposits are for the cheapest model. Who is going to drive to a Porsche dealer to get 800V charging? Who lives close enough?

I give this round to Tesla, but still believe once it turns say two years of actual profit, gulp gulp, eaten by one of the big boys.

To be fair, I look up this Hyandai Kona. I watched this with my wife. 😟

SPOILER ALERT.

Well, its not a movie so ....

Runs the car down to nothing, limp mode, charger broken :rolleyes: (my luck)
force to keep using a smartphone to figure out where to go (NOT going to happen)
Worried constantly about "energy" (making excuses)
Can't put on the heat or heated seats at 34F, no energy (Yeah, my wife will put up with that)
Chargers dead, car dead :LOL: :LOL:
Plugs in 120V at motel, plug not long enough :oops:
Plug keeps falling out because of "wind"
And then the motel has power failures during the night :LOL:

This is not ready for prime time. It like an advertising why not to buy one of these.

 

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Told ya, Its coming, just a matter of when and who

But you did see at the bottom where the analysts figures that this will never happen...
 

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I hear ya, and you know it isn't cold here at all, right now +0.5C and that's the problem, the white stuff is as heavy as cement and doesn't blow away in the wind!

BTW and FWIW, born in Calgary, lived in Red Deer and worked in Edmonton, how does that saying go, "In my day I remember walking to school in the snow, uphill in both ways..." ;)
Don't forget barefoot!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

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But you did see at the bottom where the analysts figures that this will never happen...
Yeah, that was one analyst from one company, this company


The real thing is that this is the first time I've even heard it discussed (not that I read a lot of the financial aspects). Merely talking about it is the beginning. A quick look show other analysts predicting other companies will eat Tesla, including Apple. Amazon eating Whole Foods is an example


I don't think it will happen until they actually make a year to year profit for several years. Who wants to buy a company that only loses money and never made a profit for a year?

I also checked out other details of the Model 3 and see their Gen 3 charger reduced the max power level from 60 something amps to 48 and reduced the cord from 25' to 18'. That seems a step backwards.

And whats with the key? There is no key. Back up to an app is a card? This whole smart car thing with a smart phone is regressive. Its hurts the poor to lower middle class. Its very presumptive to just assume everyone owns a smart phone, carries it with them, and its always charged. Who does that. I'm lucky to remember myself leaving the door. :LOL: Just crazy to assume the world revolves around a phone.

This will be their downfall. These cars will be hacked. All their little contests won't matter one bit. When it becomes profitable to do, someone will figure it out and watch the ransomware sink them
 

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@chows4us interesting that you mentioned Amazon, I just watched a video about winter CES, front and center in the Amazon area was a gorgeous blue Rivian truck, no doubt due to their $3B investment in Rivian and partnership to build Amazon's fleet of zero emissions delivery van's.
 

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@chows4us interesting that you mentioned Amazon, I just watched a video about winter CES, front and center in the Amazon area was a gorgeous blue Rivian truck, no doubt due to their $3B investment in Rivian and partnership to build Amazon's fleet of zero emissions delivery van's.
Some say its coming


"Amazon could push a blending of Tesla assets with its stake in electric truck startup Rivian. It could even follow Tesla’s online sales model and sell vehicles made under contract by someone like Magna through its site. Amazon is also a lot more capable at logistics than Tesla has been so far. ...There are a lot of ways this could eventually play out, however, none are likely to involve a direct acquisition of the company as long as Elon Musk is part of the deal."

Cult of Musk. He has to go.
 

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"...There are a lot of ways this could eventually play out, however, none are likely to involve a direct acquisition of the company as long as Elon Musk is part of the deal."

Cult of Musk. He has to go.
Agree 110%. He's an undeniably smart and brazen dude...but self-saddled with a toxic mix of hubris and low EQ.
 

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Agree 110%. He's an undeniably smart and brazen dude...but self-saddled with a toxic mix of hubris and low EQ.
He totally has Aspergers. Eventually he’ll get tested and/or it will come out. It’s not low IQ unless you’re talking about social IQ in which case you are spot on.

The good news is that it looks like he has been reined-in pretty thoroughly.

In the meantime 2020 will be the year the market realizes the length of Tesla’s lead. The only other automotive company I’d bet on right now is VAG. It wouldn’t surprise me if in 20 years every other brand besides VAG and Tesla was a rounding error in terms of sales.
 

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He totally has Aspergers. Eventually he’ll get tested and/or it will come out. It’s not low IQ unless you’re talking about social IQ in which case you are spot on.

The good news is that it looks like he has been reined-in pretty thoroughly.

In the meantime 2020 will be the year the market realizes the length of Tesla’s lead. The only other automotive company I’d bet on right now is VAG. It wouldn’t surprise me if in 20 years every other brand besides VAG and Tesla was a rounding error in terms of sales.
Yes, EQ is Emotional Quotient. What is EQ? - IHHP
 

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Porsche might have a bit of concern about: Tesla Roadster - tesla is promising big with a big price, but a 600+ mile range, sub 2 second 0-60 - there will be some millionaires who will cough up the $$$. Wonder if my cousin has made a deposit yet? It's the first styled by Tesla that's actually attractive too..

Has anyone heard anything about a delivery date for the first one?
 

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This is the first video I’ve seen of an EV on a dyno. Holy ****! And this is just a Model 3. Make sure you turn on the sound.


You can SEE the torque when he floors it about half way through. I would love to see something like this with a Taycan.
 

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At the beginning of this thread, I said I thought Tesla would win out of Porsche because they had the head start. If find this following problematic for Porsche.


A 2015 Porsche 918 was the only car not sold last week at Barrett-Jackson. The car had a reserve and that might be part of the problem in the reserve being to high. However, two sold in 2018 for $1.7M & $1.4M.


This is more concerning, a Bloomberg interview with PCNA. You have to actually watch the video.

TL;DV? Customers for Taycan, from deposits, couple of thousand, 50% new customers, never bought a Porsche before from Tesla?

I can't see 50% being new buyers being good. The base, the group of customers who buy Porsche after Porsche, have to be sold. So far, it doesn't look like it.

Spin it the other way. Only half the deposits are from the faithful. The rest chasing a shiny new toy? Half the base??? :oops:

 

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At the beginning of this thread, I said I thought Tesla would win out of Porsche because they had the head start. If find this following problematic for Porsche.


A 2015 Porsche 918 was the only car not sold last week at Barrett-Jackson. The car had a reserve and that might be part of the problem in the reserve being to high. However, two sold in 2018 for $1.7M & $1.4M.


This is more concerning, a Bloomberg interview with PCNA. You have to actually watch the video.

TL;DV? Customers for Taycan, from deposits, couple of thousand, 50% new customers, never bought a Porsche before from Tesla?

I can't see 50% being new buyers being good. The base, the group of customers who buy Porsche after Porsche, have to be sold. So far, it doesn't look like it.

Spin it the other way. Only half the deposits are from the faithful. The rest chasing a shiny new toy? Half the base??? :oops:

I think 50% of buyers from outside the brand is a good thing; it means the people out there who want electric but don't want Teslas are seeing an alternative. Similar situation played out with the Macan...Porsche built an SUV that appealed to a different segment of the market and the customers came. I expect the same situation with the Taycan, although in smaller numbers unless they offer a model that's $20k less the the current base Taycan.

Even though I would be consider "faithful" to the brand, I'm not interested in a Taycan, Panamera, Macan or Cayenne as none of those vehicles suit my driving requirements or lifestyle.
 

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Just a little break in the action.... it is Taycan related.

 

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EVs, Reads to me as advocacy pushing EVs. Why don't consumers buy EVs?


He pushes the TCO argument. "It costs $546 to drive 15,000 miles per year in a compact electric vehicle, while it costs $1,255 (or 130%) more to drive the same distance in a gas car, according to a report** from the American Automobile Association (AAA) this past week."

But that's not all AAA said. In fact, AAA said it was cheaper to own a gas car per year year than an EV. :oops: That bit of important information is buried at the end as an endnote. "**The AAA report also said that the overall cost of electric vehicle ownership is 8% more per year but, curiously, didn’t offer details on how it arrived at the number. I have queried AAA about this."

Funny how the important stuff is buried in footnotes and the advocacy in the lead. Always read the sources, always. Forget about the "summaries". Lets go to the sources of the article.

Source 1


Behind a firewall but a summary:


Americans don't want EVs other than Tesla. Subaru will be working with Toyota on EVs.

Source 2

JD Power survey including CA (Canada not California)


" ... With an overall score of 55 for a third straight quarter, confidence about the future of battery-electric vehicles remains neutral."

Source 3 AAA


"ORLANDO, Fla. (Jan. 22, 2020) – New research from AAA finds that over five years and 75,000 miles of driving, the annual cost of owning a new compact electric vehicle is only slightly more expensive – about $600 annually – than its gas-powered counterpart."

:eek: What, $600 more? You can read the details but they do say the cost of electric vs cost of gas is significantly lower. They tell you exactly the cars they chose and they are normal cars, regular consumers by new (e.g., Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, Honda Civic, Hyundai, Toyota Corolla, etc.)

Now here is the key point. 15,000 miles/year. You all drive 15K/year? "The electricity required to drive 15,000 miles per year in a compact electric vehicle costs an average of $546, while the amount of gas required to drive the same distance costs $1,255"

DOT statistics 13,476 across both sexes and all age groups. But what happens if you drive 6K miles/year.

Lemme do that math. elec (6,000*.0365) cents/mile gas .(6,000*.0837) $219 vs $502 or $283 savings/year vs $709. Thats a big difference. Mileage/year matters. Premium vs regular gas also matters a great deal.

Just food for thought.
 

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GM Plans for EVs. Background


TL;DR GM grew from nothing to surpassing Ford, then becoming the largest company in the world. And then :( bankruptcy. The US spent, $50,000,000,000 bailing it out and lost $11,200,000,000. I didn't abbreviate those numbers because I doubt many people truly understand how large these numbers are, never mind talking about trillions of dollars. New GM plans for electric cars



TL;DR $2.2B investment to make automated cars and EVs in Detroit. No steering wheel. More on the steering wheel-less taxi


 

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In the spirit of the OP, Car and Driver did a rather thorough test of the latest Model S and Taycan Turbo. Warning: long read. For those who are impatient, they found the Taycan to be the better car in most respects, but they were very close. At twice the price though, the Model S was their pick.

Note that their real-world range tests indicated the Taycan was only 10 miles lower than the S after 100 miles.

I think the answer is definitely “Yes” to the original question.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a30799498/2020-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-vs-2020-tesla-model-s-performance/
 
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