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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have registered for an SCCA PDX event at Iowa Speedway. Iowa Speedway is a .875 mile banked and paved oval. Indy cars run one event there, so it is a serious venue. The turns are 12-14 degrees. The front straight is 10 degrees. The back straight is 4 degrees.

An SCCA PDX is like a DE. The event at Iowa Speedway combines use of the oval and the interior road course. A typical lap time for a PDX entrant would be 1 minute or so. Castroneves does 1 lap of the oval in 17 seconds in his Indycar. Typical speeds for a semi-skilled PDX entrant on the banked portions of the track would be 100-120 mph, which might last for 15- 20 seconds or so. Sessions are 20 minutes long.

I can do this in any car I own. My options are my '63 MGB vintage race car, or my stock '14 BS.

I have no concerns about the MGB. It has an Accusump and a race-prepped oil pan with baffles designed to prevent oil starvation under any race situation. It is a dedicated race car intended for this use.

I am concerned about oil starvation under extended heavy g-loads in the BS. The car manual warns specifically about the risk of this with non-stock tires under, presumably, cornering forces one would encounter on a typical road course, which of course would not be so radically banked or have turns which are so prolonged. I have stock tires, but expect that the oil displacement laterally in a PDX on a banked oval would far exceed those generated on a road course with stickier rubber, at least as to duration, which might be a worse problem than higher g forces for a shorter period).

Any thoughts about oil starvation risk under this use?
 

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After notable issues with the M9X engines, Porsche did a lot of research and designed the oil pump that is acutally multiple pumps in one, with one pumping oilk from each head, and various places in the crankcase to the pickup area. There is a famous video of the engine on a gimbal being thrasshed in all directions.

Now for the real world. You should use a good race oil to protect the bearnings. The additive package is designed to be used up quickly, giving max protection to the engine. Some are formulated to clings and provide protection in case the oil pump guips air due to lack of oil.

One of the in dicators that oil starvation is not an issue is the lack of extra capacity add-on sumps for the 9A1 engine. As far as I know, there are only two and they are relatively new.

Now, I use Joe Gibbs' XP9 race oil on track and DT40 on the street. it has a service life of about 800 miles and the additives may attack internal parts if left in for a period of time. One pro told me he removes it at the end of each track weekend before going home. Whatever oil you choose needs to be compatible with the every day use oil or you need to flush it to prevent different additive chemistry mixes from the two oils, which may or may not be bad depending on the two oils used.

V6
 

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I routinely have run my 2013 981 Boxster on the Milwaukee Mile oval. The course runs most of both bankings with an infield course added.
I use Porsche brake fluid, pads Dunlp sport Maxx and Mobil 1 with no problems.
-Richard
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thank you both for your input. Your posts call for some attempt to synthesize oil issues which exist for street cars used occasionally on race tracks.

Oil chemistry is complicated and situation specific. I know a tiny bit about it. These are my thoughts.

For the MGB race car, my engine builder recommended a specific race oil with the right balance of ZDDP and additive minimization to optimize engine life in that highly stressed flat-tappet motor with no emissions equipment of any kind. ZDDP was essential for protection of the cam and upper cylinder walls under extended high stress. It would attack a cat and render it inoperative very quickly. Additive minimization was essential because the cleansing additives not surprisingly fight the ZDDP and want to clean it off. Not what you want, and why a can of ZDDP additive mixed with normal street oil makes no sense.

Use of a street car on a race track creates a dilemma. Race oil is necessary to protect an engine exposed to "race stress." Race oil will attack certain components of a street engine. At some point along the engine stress spectrum of aggressive DE driving, a race oil will protect against component wear and would be highly recommended. The problem might not be catastrophic failure. It might be accelerated internal wear which would be ameliorated by the right oil.

But any use of race oil in a car with emissions equipment would have to be steeped in a clear understanding of risks to emissions equipment, and a sound protocol for cleansing the race oil before any, or much, damage was done to emissions equipment or anything else.

That really depends on the race oil chosen. It would require a discussion with the oil manufacturer about benefit and risk: How to maximize the former and eliminate or minimize the latter. Engine stress protection and "unintended collateral consequences" are really in tension here and need to be considered with even DE-type uses. I would not be surprised to hear, "DO NOT USE THIS RACE OIL AT ALL IF YOU HAVE A CAT!"

And the real issue is when you move to a point on the spectrum of aggressive track use where race oil is recommended.How do you quantify that???
 

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... Race oil is necessary to protect an engine exposed to "race stress." Race oil will attack certain components of a street engine...
I have only been interested in tracking my cars for a few years, but feel like I have done a lot of reading and have not come across anyone discussing "race oil." Is a 20 minute DE session the same as race stress or are we talking about endurance type times (over an hour)?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
I have only been interested in tracking my cars for a few years, but feel like I have done a lot of reading and have not come across anyone discussing "race oil." Is a 20 minute DE session the same as race stress or are we talking about endurance type times (over an hour)?
That is part of my question: When along the continuum of increased stress for a street/ DE NA flat six is it prudent to use a race oil? Because the question has never been asked in this context does not mean that it is not a legitimate question.

I come from a wheel to wheel road racing background where, except for enduros, run sessions average 20-25 minutes. Over a race weekend, a total of 3-4 hours would be driven in anger in practice, qualifying and races.

In that context, a race oil with ZDDP and minimum detergents is mandatory.

Oil is changed every race weekend.

The object in that kind of racing is to maximize wide open throttle. My power band was 5500-7500+ for the entire session.

I have just acquired this '14 BS and have never tracked it, so I am not sure how road racing and DE will compare in engine stress, and when prudence in the DE/ SCCA SOLO 1 context would dictate use of a a race oil. But there is a point SOMEWHERE on the engine stress continuum in DE where it most assuredly would.
 

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I know a lot about oil chemistry and usage in rotating equipment of all kinds.
Most of what I have read in this thread is BS!
I run two Porsches at DE and AX events with Mobil 1.
No problems, no need for 'race oil'.-Richard
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I know a lot about oil chemistry and usage in rotating equipment of all kinds.
Most of what I have read in this thread is BS!
I run two Porsches at DE and AX events with Mobil 1.
No problems, no need for 'race oil'.-Richard
Thank you for the input. I hope you are right.

It would be very helpful for you to elaborate on what in your opinion is BS.

For instance, is it BS that a vintage race engine like in my MGB needs a race oil?

That in such a car the race oil should be changed after every race weekend?

That a race oil used in a modern flat 6 Porsche street motor with emissions equipment intact can cause issues?

That at some point the stresses on an DE/ AX motor can approach those found in race conditions?

That at some point a multi-use car with high speed DE/AX use could benefit from or need race oil? Why is that point never reached?

Is race oil is a scam, and normal road use oil with detergents is fine for race cars too?

This should be about education, not "winning the thread" with generalities. I hope that you can elaborate in that spirit.
 

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Thank you for the input. I hope you are right.

It would be very helpful for you to elaborate on what in your opinion is BS.

For instance, is it BS that a vintage race engine like in my MGB needs a race oil?

That in such a car the race oil should be changed after every race weekend?

That a race oil used in a modern flat 6 Porsche street motor with emissions equipment intact can cause issues?

That at some point the stresses on an DE/ AX motor can approach those found in race conditions?

That at some point a multi-use car with high speed DE/AX use could benefit from or need race oil? Why is that point never reached?

Is race oil is a scam, and normal road use oil with detergents is fine for race cars too?

This should be about education, not "winning the thread" with generalities. I hope that you can elaborate in that spirit.
It is not incumbant upon me to disprove your 'assertions'!
It is your responsibilty to prove that normal oil such as Mobil 1 used in newer Porsche engines is NOT suitable for DE events at ovals.
Dazzling readers with BS does not work with informed individuals.
EOT for me.-Richard
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
It is not incumbant upon me to disprove your 'assertions'!
It is your responsibilty to prove that normal oil such as Mobil 1 used in newer Porsche engines is NOT suitable for DE events at ovals.
Dazzling readers with BS does not work with informed individuals.
EOT for me.-Richard
I have been asking questions about oil in a context I am not familiar with, not making assertions. You are too caught up in your playground strutting to see that; no surprise. And no surprise that when challenged in the hope of a deeper response than your unsupported, caustic opinion and uncivil name-calling, you do not, or cannot, justify what you say. This is a waste of my time.
 

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This thread got a little derailed. Oil issues certainly exist in 987.1 cars, not so much with the later engine. Back in the day, I built and raced MGBs. Following the Huffaker formula, I built an engine which got me to the SCCA runoffs in 1974. I used off the shelf Pennzoil because they gave it to me. No oiling issues. My real job at the time was manager of McLaren Engines which built the Indy Turbo Offy motors as well as the Chevy Can-Am motors. I started tracking 987.1 Caymans about 9 years ago. Being a former racer I drive a DE car hard. That said, I am an instructor and the majority of students do not push their cars as hard. Several years ago I started using Motul 300 V racing oil. I have sold the car but the new owner is still tracking it adding about 20 days to the 150 I had on the car. The motor has had no issues. I'm currently tracking a GT4 and I went to Motul race oil after break in. I'm about to try Motul 300 Gear lube in the transmission.
 

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I'll leave the oil choice up to you.

RE: Running a 2014 Boxster on a banked oval? We do that a lot out here in CA on the Fontana AAA Speedway. It is very rare-to-non-existant for a well maintained, 987.2 or later car to suffer oil starvation, or more correctly, cavitation of the oil pickup due to excessive lateral G forces. This was a HUGE problem with 986-987.1 cars with several motors getting killed every weekend at that track. I run this track regularly in a 2009 987.2 and enter turn 1 bank around 140mph.

My recommendation: Use fresh fluids, top off your oil and check it before every session. Run street tires not R7s, and if you are still nervous about it, short shift and carry lower RPM in the banked section to reduce the possibility of oil pickup cavitation. There are no guarantees running a DE on an oval and you still might pull the lucky straw that requires a motor transplant. These measures have been effective for many drivers at Fontana. Choose wisely, it's your car and your dough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
I thought that this thread had crashed and died. I appreciate the useful post-death input. There are unquestionably some subtle issues here.

Cajundaddy, as an aside, funny that you mention MGBs and Fontana. My MGB engine builder was Dave Headley, Cortez, CO., one of the foremost B race engine builders anywhere. His proprietary race sump and external oil pump were beta tested by a number of racers around the country including me. He did not recommend the use of an Accusump with these except for cold starts. After that, it was to be shut off. Several of his West Coast beta testers raced at Fontana. They were experiencing oil starvation on the banked oval with the external oil pump. He added a baffle to the sump which he called the Fontana Fin, to address migration of oil to the outside of the engine during sustained high speed corners on the Fontana oval. Problem solved. He thought that Accusumps potentially dumped too much oil into his race sump, with resulting overpressurization issues: Cure worse than disease. Now back to topic.

Here is what I think after pondering 981 DE OIL 101 for the past week or so and talking to others outside of Porscheworld. I welcome feedback. I'm looking for "best practice" here. We all benefit from getting this right.

If you drive your Porsche like a race car, it needs a race oil. "Driving it like a race car" means, except for braking, trying to use wide open throttle as much as you can during every second of track time when you are able to do without leaving the track. That's what real racing is. Not every DE driver can or will do this. In fact, most won't. I did it in the race MGB, but I won't in my street '14 BS. A race oil will provide a chemical barrier for camshafts, valve stems , cylinder walls, bearings etc. which otherwise will scuff and deteriorate even to the point of catastrophic failure from metal-to-metal contact as nonrace oil becomes more marginal with extended high revs, stress and heat. This is especially critical in flat tappet cams with high tension valve springs that create high contact pressure points. The chemical barrier in a race oil and not present in a street oil extends life under these stresses.

If you use a race oil in a car with modern emissions equipment, you will eventually ruin the emissions system. I do not know how long "eventually" is.

If you use race oil in a street car for normal street use, the car will suffer more engine corrosion, rust, oxidation, acidity and foam than it would with a street oil with proper additives. Race oils do not have these because they scour off the zinc/ phosphorus chemical barrier found in race oil that protects the stressed engine from metal-to-metal scuffing, contact and oil starvation.

Failure to use a race oil when necessary may cause catastrophic failure. But, more likely it will "only" create accelerated internal wear that cannot be detected without taking the engine apart. "I have never lost an engine in DE with street oil" is not a sufficent refutation of the need for a race oil in DE events.

I do not know how long it takes for a race oil to ruin a cat. If one could use a race oil for 2-3 hours of track time and then drain and flush without damage to the cat, that would be the most prudent course. Does anyone have any experience with that, or, better, data?

I do not have a good feel for when one is driving hard enough in DE to "need" a race oil. "Need" begins when wear is accelerated from high stress. Of course it could include catastrophic failure too. There is a point between "driving it like a race car" and mere "hard driving" where, by degree, accelerated wear starts to occur. That is when a race oil begins to be needed.

I am just beginning DE. Eventually, when the warranty runs out, I will be tempted to pull the cats and use a race oil which will be drained after every event. Actually, I am tempted now.

If you want to run hard during DE track time, it is best to have a dedicated DE car which has no catalyst and does not see street use. Use race oil. Change it every 2-3 hours of track time. If it sees street use, change the race oil after every event and use a street oil with the proper anti-corrosive etc. additives until the next event.

The answer to the question, "Do I need a race oil in DE?" is, thus, "It depends."
 

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Was your MGB builder a former Oldsmobile engineer who lived in Michigan? If so I bought his version of a Huffaker exhaust manifold and a few other parts. Regarding race oil used in street cars, cats are a lot cheaper than blown engines. I just changed my oil today and went with Motul 300 V again and due to the very high heat in our gearbox, am trying Motul Gear oil which has a very good viscosity index.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Was your MGB builder a former Oldsmobile engineer who lived in Michigan? If so I bought his version of a Huffaker exhaust manifold and a few other parts. Regarding race oil used in street cars, cats are a lot cheaper than blown engines. I just changed my oil today and went with Motul 300 V again and due to the very high heat in our gearbox, am trying Motul Gear oil which has a very good viscosity index.
Bill, yes, Dave Headley, now d/b/a Fab-Tek, was an engineer with Olds in Detroit. During his SCCA career he had the fastest B in the country, although he never won the Runoffs.

I agree with you that cats are cheaper than blown engines. It is tempting just to remove the cats permanently and use a race oil for DE, then go back to Mobil 1 for street use until the next event. At law, that would void the warranty only if whatever failed was caused by the cat removal. It is hard to see any mechanical failure which would be caused by cat removal. Of course, you might have to sue Porsche first if they took the silly position that causal relationship was irrelevant. That is admittedly easy for a lawyer like me to say, and is another thread for another time, perhaps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Its a small world. Dave was tapering off racing MGBs while I was ramping up. We had an epic race at Gratten in the rain. I was on dry tires.
Grattan is a track that creeps into your head and never leaves, good and bad. I am trying DE now because my orthopedic surgeon told me I would be foolish to risk wheel-to-wheel racing any more after a bad crash there that resulted in major back surgery. But the intensity of all that, good and bad, remains. Dave was a big part of all that.
 
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