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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HELLO,

ok, heres the situation:

I had a cayman in the beginning bought it brandnew, not the S , the regular model.. when it came to around 10K miles the clutch went out,
now, i dont think i ride the clutch..i try to use it as very little as possible.. i never have my foot on the thing.. so i had to buy a new one which costed me 1200, warrranty WOULD NOT COVER it. I even calle d porsche headquarters and they said under NO circumstances will they cover it.

so i went ahead and paid for it..and about 2 months later i traded it in for this 09 911 Carrerra. Ok, so I am currently at 3900 miles, bareley drive it and dont let anyone else drive it except only one time where i was the passenger and a friend took it out and went extremely fast over thankgiving..
about 2 weeks later car is barlely performing, so i took it into porsche, they said the clutch gone and flying wheel gone, just completley 100 percent worn out.. they said it is due to my driving skills.. so here is now 2000 dollars i have to pay as they had to get a couple other parts from Germany.. and again, warranty not covering it!! (i am not having good luck with porsche at all) my history is this: i had lotus elise, standard transmission up to 40k miles, no clutch issues, camaro standard 100k miles , no issues, eclipse, standard no clutch issues, ford focus standard trans, no clutch issues.
so what is going on here.????? im supposed to pick this car up tomorrow
my 911 carrera at 3900 miles and pay porsche about 2K. they said they are going to take me out for "driving lessons" which is so damn insulting.. sure , im a woman, but idont put my foot on this clutch!!! and the cayman, i had same experience. this is just crooked..!!! and driver is being blamed. i dont commute to work, the car sits at my home /office, i barely use it but to go to the bank and back and ive had it for exactly a year with 3900 miles..
so pls tell me what to do here????? should i be paying this money to porsche??? should i call the headquarters and try to get it waived???? im so angry..=(
 

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Are you dealing with the same dealer or multiple dealerships?
 

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Just sounds dumb. Obviously you have experience in driving standard, and doesn't seem like you would burn out a clutch. And 3900 miles? hell even with bad technique i think it would be hard to totally burn one out that quickly. I learned on my current car, and it now has 65K with no problems whatsoever, and I'm sure that I put a bit of hurt on it at the beginning.


If it were the first car that was manual you had ever driven, I'd look to the driver, but with that kind of experience, I would doubt that you could manage to burn one up that quick. You would definitely notice the smell if you were toasting the clutch that quickly.

Unless a Porsche has a totally different system I don't see how this can be possible.
 

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I can see where you would be angry at this situation, most people would be, but historically, Porsches have pretty stout clutches. Back in '06 and '07 there were some bad clutch slave cylinders put into all the models, and some Caymans had some problems with pressure plate bolts not being tightened to spec. But otherwise, I've heard of very few clutch problems, particularly premature wear. Just for your information, Porsche - and almost all other manufacturers consider clutches to be "wear items" like brakes. If you wear out a clutch at 3k miles or 300k miles, you must pay to replace it.

Despite the fact that you've not had this problem with the other cars you've driven in the past, there is something in your driving habits that is prematurely wearing out the clutches in your Porsches. I know many people with late model Porsches who have over 50k miles on their cars, and have not had a worn clutch. I teach at a racing school, and you would be very surprised at the vast differences in the way people drive manual transmission cars - mainly because of the way someone taught them to drive them early in their driving experience. Examples are: some swear that you should put in the clutch pedal when going around corners; many use the clutch/transmission to completely slow the car, then use the brakes just before stopping; many people rev the car WAY too high before engaging the clutch for initial drive-off, so much so, that you can smell the clutch burning, and there are others. When we point these things out to the students, all of them either have no idea that they do them, or if they do, they do them because someone along the way, or a long time ago told them that's how to drive a stick. They have no idea that what they are doing is putting extra, and in many cases unnecessary strain on the drive train of their cars. I see you say that you don't keep your foot on the clutch, but there are many other ways than that to wear a clutch out prematurely. In fact, lightly resting your foot on the clutch really won't wear out the clutch itself, unless you have it pressed more than halfway down to the floor.

It may seem insulting - particularly because you are a woman - but you should really take them up on a session where someone who is familiar with Porsches can see how you're driving. If not at the dealer, then someone who has a late-model Porsche and has gotten long life from their clutch. If the way you're driving is wearing out the clutch prematurely, they can show you how to change your habits so your drive train will have the same longevity enjoyed by an extremely high percentage of Porsche owners.

brad
 

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I teach at a racing school, and you would be very surprised at the vast differences in the way people drive manual transmission cars - mainly because of the way someone taught them to drive them early in their driving experience. Examples are: some swear that you should put in the clutch pedal when going around corners; many use the clutch/transmission to completely slow the car, then use the brakes just before stopping; many people rev the car WAY to high before engaging the clutch for initial drive-off, so much so, that you can smell the clutch burning, and there are others.
Excellent points, and I see the same practices often just driving with my friends. Especially down-shifting to a stop. Some of these folks are people that obsessively detail and maintain their cars, yet they use poor technique with manual transmissions. I'm often amazed at what some people do in stop and go traffic, keeping the revs relatively high and using clutch engagement to modulate speed.

Nonetheless, to the OP, it is impossible to determine what's happened over the internet. We can't drive with you to observe your technique, we can't diagnose anything without examining the car, and we don't know what your friend did while driving "extremely fast". I agree that it seems very suspect to have any clutch and pressure plate wear out in 3900 miles, but all that we can really do is express condolences.

To those more experienced with Porsches than I am, isn't $2000 pretty cheap to R&R a 997 clutch and pressure plate?
 

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As Brad noted take them up on a check out drive. If you are confident that it is not your issue you may convince them to give you some form of a break on price.

Be civil but firm.
 

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Perhaps the clutch delay switch is throwing your timing off and causes clutch wear?
I drove 25 miles tonight with the switch taped IN (to replicate what position it is in during normal driving). As expected, the difference is dramatic.

Before the switch defeat, I had subtle but noticeable delays on moderate (low speed) low RPM shifts that are now gone.
What I was feeling was the clutch delay (just under 2 seconds).

The advantages for me are simple - the embarrassing and annoying "braaaaap" is gone, making for much more enjoyable 1st gear starts (as well as driving up any inclines, parking the car, backing up, and so on). And, of course, linear and smoother shifts.
So...is this the REAL reason why the car is so stall happy? I have always felt that it was odd that it took so many revs to pull away from a stop.

Without exception, parking attendants stall the car.
I just tried this mod and I can tell you the difference is night and day....not dusk and dawn but night and day...especially in first...my foot and clutch now work in unison...before I thought - "now I know I haven't driven a manual in quite some time and that I was rusty", taping up this button I now think...hmmm my skills weren't so bad after all. I don't know whether to leave it or try to get used to Porsche's high revs to move out of first. Really what's the real harm...and why is this there in the first place.
http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster-modifications/25405-clutch-delay-switch-defeated-joy.html
 

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As Brad noted take them up on a check out drive. If you are confident that it is not your issue you may convince them to give you some form of a break on price.

Be civil but firm.
Exactly what I was thinking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
thank you for all your responses.. of course im taking tthem up on the driving school..lol
but, none of you answered my quandry about if i should pay for this 2K deal, (yes they did give me a break) or take it up with porsche headquarters to try to get this thing comped.
clutch delay switch? is that something i should let the dealer know about?
could that be possible?
im dealing with one dealership here only not multiple..
 

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thank you for all your responses.. of course im taking tthem up on the driving school..lol
but, none of you answered my quandry about if i should pay for this 2K deal, (yes they did give me a break) or take it up with porsche headquarters to try to get this thing comped.
clutch delay switch? is that something i should let the dealer know about?
could that be possible?
im dealing with one dealership here only not multiple..
You can try to talk with Porsche HQ - the worst they can say is "no" but I doubt it will do any good. Maybe the dealer may further discount the job to keep you as a customer. Somebody will have to pay, for you to have a car with a clutch in it that works. You might ask the mechanics what their best guess is from looking at the clutch parts, if this looks like a problem that happened over a period of time, or if it was something that recently happened through abuse - ie: your friend recently driving the car "very fast." It has been known to happen where someone can abuse the clutch so badly that they burn it up - or this might have been the coup-de-gras added to an already worn part.

I also seriously doubt the clutch delay switch has much to do with it - hundreds of thousands of people drive their Porsches without prematurely burning-up their clutches, and have no idea that there is such a thing as a clutch delay switch. If I'm not mistaken, it's really there to help ease the clutch out after a shift, which actually helps the clutch last longer, not shorten its life.

brad
 

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...you should really take them up on a session where someone who is familiar with Porsches can see how you're driving. If not at the dealer, then someone who has a late-model Porsche and has gotten long life from their clutch. If the way you're driving is wearing out the clutch prematurely, they can show you how to change your habits so your drive train will have the same longevity enjoyed by an extremely high percentage of Porsche owners.

brad
I have to agree with the Beez here. Take them up on the offer for "driving lessons". You might pick up some nugget of information....or, if they show you nothing and you demonstrate to them that you know how to take care of a clutch, you might have a shot at some financial help. I would ask them for the "driving lesson", then insist that you drive first. Show them how you drive and pull no punches. Drive like you drive. Hell, drive them to the bank! Then have them show you how to do it.

After paying for two clutches on two cars, I would think you might want to take a little time to see if you're doing something basically wrong when you drive these cars. I would want to know.

Beez had a lot of examples of people's wrong driving habits. I let my cousin, who has a Mustang V-8 w/stick, drive a BMW I had once. He got in and immediately started jamming the gears from one to another and speed-shifting it. I'd never seen anyone shift like this. He didn't like my car until I drove it for him, showed him where the power band was, showed him that it was not necessary or good to speed-shift etc. (Speed-shifting is where you leave your foot on the accelerator when you shift, press the clutch in and let the revs rise rapidly while you jam the lever into the next gear and pop the clutch. I mean, who would do this while the owner is there in the car with them? It was just shocking.

Also of interest would be, where do you store this car? Any unusual atmospheric storage conditions (salt air or something) that might cause the clutch material to stick to the flywheel? Ever heard a pop or thunk noise when you first push on the clutch after not driving the car for a while?

You are not driving it enough! You just go to the bank with it? I hope you're laughing all the way - to the bank, I mean...get it? Oh nevermind.

Driving a car like this only 3900 miles per year with an average trip of 10 miles or less is not the way to take care of it. Ferrari owners often put less than 1000 miles per year on their cars, but that's not 500 two mile trips, it's maybe 20 50 mile trips where the car gets fully warmed up before it is driven in a sporting manner. After a couple of these trips, the car generally gets a nice bath and gets put back in its climate controlled stable.

You need to drive this car 50 miles or more at a time...not every time, but once a month at minimum...just go for a nice ride someplace. After it's fully warmed up, you should run it hard a bit..5000 revs or more. These engines like and need that now and then.

The worse thing for a clutch is 3000 RPMs or higher and gently, very gently, easing the clutch out while the engine spins at a high rate. This rubs the friction material of the clutch against the metal flywheel very gently at high speed, glazes the clutch material and can really heat up the flywheel and cause it to warp.

Another very bad thing to do to the clutch is to hold the car on a hill using the engine and clutch instead of the brake. That causes the clutch to slip constantly against the clutch plate, same as the above.

You don't live in San Fransico or Seattle, do you? The drive to the bank isn't in stop and go traffic uphill?

What wears out the clutch is the slipping part. That would be starting from a complete stop. You want 1000 to 1500 RPMs for that on level ground, no more and as you let the clutch out, the revs can drop down a bit, but not below 500RPMs, where it will stall. Once you're moving, let the clutch out completely until the next gear. Not much more to it.

Since you take many short trips, that means a lot of clutch work and a lot of starting and stopping. I still think it's unlikely that it would wear out the clutch in under 4,000 miles unless there was a whole lot of clutch slipping going on at some higher revs.

There is a reason Porsche and every other maker of sports cars do not guarantee clutches. A lot of owners, male or female, abuse clutches in sports cars either willfully or just from not understanding how they work and what they do and how to use them properly. They don't teach this in Driver's Ed anymore.

Just get the car moving, then remove foot from clutch, accelerate..even mash on the gas. It won't matter... When it's time to shift, clutch all the way down, shift, clutch back up all the way quickly, then mash the gas. Be easy on the stick, match revs and be smooth. When foot is off the clutch again, mash on the gas again. That's how endurance racers make a clutch last for 24 hours of racing with a 1000hp car and a lightweight flywheel. They don't slip the clutch any more than needed and they don't use the clutch hard for standing starts. Once foot is off the clutch, apply the big power, not before.

I'm not saying you do or do not know all of this. We don't have much information to go by. This covers everything I can think of that could wear a clutch out in under 4,000 miles. It's not clear from your message that the second car, the Carrera, was purchased new or already had miles on it.
 

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Some excellent advice here. I'll add "don't beat yourself up too much". Part of the joy of ownership is learning. Sometimes it might be an expensive lesson but in the end if you learn you will be proud of your knowledge. That includes learning the best techniques for driving as well as purchasing and maintaining. Best of luck.
 

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Just sounds dumb. Obviously you have experience in driving standard, and doesn't seem like you would burn out a clutch. And 3900 miles? hell even with bad technique i think it would be hard to totally burn one out that quickly.
A long time ago I had an '82 Plymouth Champ with a perfectly good clutch. I let a friend have it for a day and she assured me she knew how to drive a manual transmission. She brought it back after several hours and about 50 miles. The clutch was so completely worn out that the car could not be driven.
 

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Take them up on the 'drive along'. If they do find something with your driving style that would affect clutch wear, so much the better. If not, as others have pointed out, you may have a point with them on the wear out issue.

My own personal experience with finding a problem with my style came when I took an advanced riders course (MSF) about ten years ago. During one of the exercises one of the instructors said I was dragging my brakes into corners. I said 'couldn't be!' so I went out and showed him I wasn't - and this time I was consciously looking for it. To make a long story short, after the third try with even more conscious effort, I realized that I was engaging the rear brake with my right foot as I cornered. After really thanking him for his persistence, we both looked at the bike and my style and agreed that a simple adjustment on the rear pedal would eliminate what could be, in some circumstances, an issue.

I learned that there is nothing like having the opportunity for others to observe your style and objectively critique it. Not saying this might happen to you in this instance but to say the least I was surprised. Good luck!:cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
very cool amazing info
this car is stored nicely in carport in orlando florida
no saltwater
bought brand new 2009
0 miles on it december 2008 last year

i will take it out more

and i will do the driving lesson

i still feel this is the fault of the one time i let this man take it out with my being in passengers seat, it happened on thanksgiving.. and the car began smoking about 2 weeks later
and couldnt even get it to move, and i just thought it was the gas i was using, but i brought it in, last week and thus, saying it was the clutch
 

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And don't trust those un-trust worthy men in your life. You know who we are talking about.... again good luck.

And if you decide to trade the PDK transmission is terrific. A lot of us Porsche old timers are going that way next.
 

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I would suggest that you take your car to Porsche of Melbourne. I too live in Orlando and have not felt the local dealership has had my best interests in mind when I have brought my car to them for service. Porsche of Melbourne has been excellent to deal with and has taken very good care of me in the past. Just my opinion. When it goes out of warranty, I would suggest Zotz Garage off of Semoran Blvd near Howell Branch road behind the Mattress Factory. Very honest and talented technicians. I would also suggest that you come out to any of the local Porsche Club events or meetings. There are several women members that own and drive Porsches that I am sure would be glad to discuss your situation and offer you additional constructive advice. You can find out more about the club at Porsche Club of America Florida Citrus Region PM me if you would like more specific information. There is general membership meeting coming up on the 4th and a club social drive and lunch on the 10th. Good luck and I hope to see you soon at a local event.
 

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Porsche is not going to pay for a clutch. Regardless of your arguments to them they cannot see or monitor your driving habits and will deny. Unless your car has a leaking oil seal issue that worked its way back to the plates you won't get a sympathetic ear.

These cars have pretty tough clutches. I'm on my 4th Porsche and never burned a clutch out, and that includes a 911E I drove to 238,000 miles.

Either you have very bad luck on some fluke clutch issues or you do need someone to ride along with you and observe how you drive the car. Don't take it as an insult, its an opportunity to help correct a bad habit perhaps? I cannot tell you the number of students I take out in Driving Schools on the track that tell me 'I know how to drive a high performance car' and it turns out ..... they don't really have a clue at all.

Listen, observe, learn. Whatever you're doing is costing you $ 2K every 10K miles it sounds like.
 

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Let me ask if you this question.
When driving slowly for either take off or moving up or down a steep driveway, do you use the clutch at the midway point (ie your foot is neither full on or fully off the pedal) to avoid the car lurching or not driving smooth?
 

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HELLO,

ok, heres the situation:

I had a cayman in the beginning bought it brandnew, not the S , the regular model.. when it came to around 10K miles the clutch went out,
now, i dont think i ride the clutch..i try to use it as very little as possible.. i never have my foot on the thing.. so i had to buy a new one which costed me 1200, warrranty WOULD NOT COVER it. I even calle d porsche headquarters and they said under NO circumstances will they cover it.

so i went ahead and paid for it..and about 2 months later i traded it in for this 09 911 Carrerra. Ok, so I am currently at 3900 miles, bareley drive it and dont let anyone else drive it except only one time where i was the passenger and a friend took it out and went extremely fast over thankgiving..
about 2 weeks later car is barlely performing, so i took it into porsche, they said the clutch gone and flying wheel gone, just completley 100 percent worn out.. they said it is due to my driving skills.. so here is now 2000 dollars i have to pay as they had to get a couple other parts from Germany.. and again, warranty not covering it!! (i am not having good luck with porsche at all) my history is this: i had lotus elise, standard transmission up to 40k miles, no clutch issues, camaro standard 100k miles , no issues, eclipse, standard no clutch issues, ford focus standard trans, no clutch issues.
so what is going on here.????? im supposed to pick this car up tomorrow
my 911 carrera at 3900 miles and pay porsche about 2K. they said they are going to take me out for "driving lessons" which is so damn insulting.. sure , im a woman, but idont put my foot on this clutch!!! and the cayman, i had same experience. this is just crooked..!!! and driver is being blamed. i dont commute to work, the car sits at my home /office, i barely use it but to go to the bank and back and ive had it for exactly a year with 3900 miles..
so pls tell me what to do here????? should i be paying this money to porsche??? should i call the headquarters and try to get it waived???? im so angry..=(
You should take a drive with someone to see what you are doing wrong.
Clutches don't wear themselves out. The good news is, after you're told
what the issue is, you'll be done with replacing clutches.

And BTW, clutches are "consumables", just like brake pads, oil, and gasoline.
You could get a contract to replace them with a third party, but noone is
going to give you a warranty on it.
 
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