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Discussion Starter #1
Has anybody ever done the conversion? Been curiously pricing out the parts:

Front Calipers: $1,800 (Brand New from ECS Tuning)
Rear Calipers: $1,600 (Brand New from ECS Tuning)
Front Rotors $1,800 (Brand New BREMBO from Suncoast)
Rear Rotors :$1,800 (Brand New BREMBO from Suncoast)

Total: $7,000~

Curious to know if they use the same Brake Lines as the OEM Brakes?

Additionally, the Pads, I reckon could be had for $400 for the Front/Rear, though, that depends.

I'm interested, as in Hong Kong, Big Brake Kits do not pass the yearly MOT, as they use an Adapter. However, with OEM Porsche PCCB Calipers, you get the size/pistons of a BBK, but without the Adapters, thus making it 100% Legal. I'm not interested in the actual PCCB Rotors, as they're too expensive.

Seems like the total of price of $7,000 is pretty close to a BREMBO Front/Rear BBK to begin with? Maybe even slightly cheaper?

Any thoughts?
 

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Phil,

Don't worry. You aren't the only one :)

You have 3 options as far as I know:

1) GT3 front calipers + steel rotors only. Cheapest option, and just requires the front OEM calipers + discs + wheel carriers. Suncoast has everything sold as a package. But expect brake bias to be off by a little.

2) Option 1 + move your existing front calipers to rear. You supposedly can take 993 turbo calipers to put into the back, and then some rotor spacer so everything fits in the back with the handbrake. There are posts here, but honestly I haven't seen much details. Not to the point I could explain fully to my mechanic how to do it. My mechanic said he has never done it before, and he's pretty handy with Porsches. So I am not willing to dump 4 grand USD on a set of front brakes and then move the calipers to the rear to try. Frankly I'm not a fan of throwing off the brake bias much if the rear can't fit the OEM front calipers from the Cayman S.

3) PCCB calipers + wheel carriers (similar to what you mentioned). Then you need a set of Brembo steel rotors as you mentioned. There are some brake sensors/hoses/wires here and there, but those are cheap. Note that you included only calipers, and not the wheel carriers. The front PCCB calipers require different wheel carriers as the calipers stick out more and mounting holes are different -- much like GT3 calipers. Carriers aren't cheap. Small thing after this would be master brake cylinder so the pedal will firm up a little.

FYI .. wheel carrier part numbers are:

Front L: 99734115725 ~ 600USD
Front R: 99734115825 ~ 600USD


Others please chime in if you have more info on option #2 or so
 

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When I started reading, I thought this was a thread about converting PCCB to steel. So what is it you're doing in HK that requires MORE brakes than std equipment?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
When I started reading, I thought this was a thread about converting PCCB to steel. So what is it you're doing in HK that requires MORE brakes than std equipment?
Truthfully? Nothing I do "requires" more brakes. I was just looking into a Big Brake Kit, as I've always had them on my vehicles. I like the look of Big Brakes behind nice wheels! Doesn't look proper otherwise.
 

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Hahahaha. Same here. Frankly stock brakes with Pagid pads would do the job for me given my level of skill. I don't track to race or run endurance events, so stock brakes are good for the standard 25 min sessions most cars run anyway.

But then I always itch for more bigger brakes just cuz the stock discs and calipers look tiny in comparison to the wheels. Really just a superficial thing TBH. Much like changing wheels or adding a body kit to the car really -- just for styling more than for function.
 

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But expect brake bias to be off by a little.
Totally casual question as I'm not considering upgrading the brakes at this point, but if you went to the trouble of a big brake kit, how hard would it be to add a bias adjustment? In most race cars you run a fair amount more rear bias so that the car will trail brake rotate more easily (and of course in the rain you run a lot more rear bias to avoid trail brake understeer).

I'm imagining just going larger calipers on the front would take more fluid an therefore likely send more bias to the front, which I can't imagine would be desirable for anyone in need of a larger brake kit.
 

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You will also need the GT3 master cylinder as well, it is inexpensive compared to the rest of the parts.

For bias adjustment, you could switch to the cup style dual master cylinders, that is the best method, and adjust pressures before they enter the ABS controller, but the ABS controller may need to be tweaked as well, as it may try to compensate if it sees parameters outside of the programming.
 

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philchow...

thats 1800 each for pccb not for the set. so your looking at 3600 for the fronts and 3600 for the rears..

Lemon
 

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I am having my PCCB calipers painted silver as I didn't want yellow, but I had no idea you could run the calipers with the rotors which would set you back closer to 18k from Suncoast. Another Spyder owner did the conversion and with parts and labor was just under 20k.

Had no idea people just did the Caliper. is there a benefit?
 

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Totally casual question as I'm not considering upgrading the brakes at this point, but if you went to the trouble of a big brake kit, how hard would it be to add a bias adjustment? In most race cars you run a fair amount more rear bias so that the car will trail brake rotate more easily (and of course in the rain you run a lot more rear bias to avoid trail brake understeer).

I'm imagining just going larger calipers on the front would take more fluid an therefore likely send more bias to the front, which I can't imagine would be desirable for anyone in need of a larger brake kit.
I have asked that question too. But then my conclusion was that I probably wouldn't know how to adjust the bias very well, so will arbitrarily take that PCCB setup bias is reasonably good. Also, some say the front standard calipers on the 987/997 cars are very similar to the rear ones for PCCB equipped cars. That's why I feel it's worth the trouble. I just don't feel comfortable manually adjusting these things as I'm not an expert at this.

As to why reduce the change in bias to the front ... I have friends who have done only the front and did notice a tad too much lock up on the track. From my understanding, the GT3 cars actually run a bigger bias in the rear compared to the regular 997 cars. Having more rear bias actually is better for braking *if you know what you are doing* as most cars' front brakes are way overwhelmed in terms of bias. Tires and brakes would get overwhelmed pretty early, when the rear brakes are just chilling. However, that way it's safer for average drivers on the road in case they brake mid way through the corner or if their cars are running softer suspension etc. The GT3 can take more bias in the rear because of the more aggressive suspension setup. I mean, at the end of the day, brake bias is a very complicated subject which I don't understand a whole lot about. My preference is just try to restore the bias as close to stock as possible while going through a brake upgrade.


thats 1800 each for pccb not for the set. so your looking at 3600 for the fronts and 3600 for the rears
Calipers alone are around 900 USD from various vendors in the US. Phil's price quote does not include rotors or anything else.


I am having my PCCB calipers painted silver as I didn't want yellow, but I had no idea you could run the calipers with the rotors which would set you back closer to 18k from Suncoast. Another Spyder owner did the conversion and with parts and labor was just under 20k.

Had no idea people just did the Caliper. is there a benefit?
The OP was looking for PCCB calipers while retaining rotors in steel. The benefit is firstly for bling. But more importantly, the capacity for retaining/cooling all the heat is much greater with bigger rotors + bigger calipers even when rotors are in steel. The more clamping force isn't actually needed for a relatively stock car, as the braking ability is often limited by tires, ABS program and/or suspension setup.

The floating disc design is another big benefit. I mean depending on driving habits, some people (like me) could have a very soft pedal by the end of a up+downhill spirited drive after 10 mins. On some tracks for about 20 mins even with high temp fluids. The reason to keep the steel rotors is really for cost of replacement. I wouldn't wanna spend 8K USD every 5 or 6 track events on a new set of ceramic rotors. Brembo steel ones are much easier to replace, and tend to hold up better in track usage. One could get very similar results by just changing into bigger discs like Girodisc on stock calipers, but that won't pass local authorities due to the adapter needed to push the stock calipers out for Girodiscs.




Anyway, all that said. More likely than anything I'll stick with the stock calipers due to cost. I would love to have a less-mushy/firmer pedal. GT3 master brake cylinder is good, but if I remember correctly, that also shortens the pedal travel a bit. I don't mind the brake pedal travel actually. Neither do I want to go with stainless steel lines due to safety reasons ...
 

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I have asked that question too. But then my conclusion was that I probably wouldn't know how to adjust the bias very well
Well I'm not sure how well I use bias, I'm sure many use it more effectively than me, but at a basic level if the car is tight/understeering under trail braking that indicates the front end is losing grip before the rear, so you dial back the bias to free up more front tire for turning an try to utilize more of that available rear tire.

If the car is getting loose/oversteering and making you drift the corner too much thats an indication the rear is losing grip first and you dial it forward to help the back end have some tire left to grip. Once I get it close to neutral to slightly loose I tend to just leave it for that track layout.

So in that sense its not something I personally fiddle with too much once I get it to a nice place.

I just mention it because street cars almost always have way too much front bias, which means they tend to brake-understeer under aggressive braking/turn in. The contrast is only striking once you've driven a car that trail brakes nicely into controlled rotation. That would be my concern with just throwing on super large disks and calipers up front, I'd be afraid that I just did the equivalent of taking my car to having a much larger front bias, which is usually not the right direction for trail-brake balance IMHO. Obviously from a fade standpoint the larger setup would be better with fade.

But I can appreciate being intimidated to make changes. As with any change you can definitely screw up the bias to the point that its dangerous.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
You will also need the GT3 master cylinder as well, it is inexpensive compared to the rest of the parts.

For bias adjustment, you could switch to the cup style dual master cylinders, that is the best method, and adjust pressures before they enter the ABS controller, but the ABS controller may need to be tweaked as well, as it may try to compensate if it sees parameters outside of the programming.
Already have the GT3 Master Cylinder enroute. Will be using it with the OEM Brakes for the time being first!

I am having my PCCB calipers painted silver as I didn't want yellow, but I had no idea you could run the calipers with the rotors which would set you back closer to 18k from Suncoast. Another Spyder owner did the conversion and with parts and labor was just under 20k.

Had no idea people just did the Caliper. is there a benefit?
Truthfully, it's for the fact that it's 350MM Rotors all around, and they're 6-Pot. They'll hold up to intense braking better, with a larger rotor.

And, like Zinger said, I'm honestly doing this just because I love the look of a BBK. There are plenty of mountain roads in Hong Kong, and some that you can do quite aggressively. With stock brakes, a 10 minute run could 100% cook your stock brakes. Is there a need for a BBK? I wouldn't say there's a need. Good pads/rotors along with some fluid will go a long way, but...I just like the bling! :p

philchow...

thats 1800 each for pccb not for the set. so your looking at 3600 for the fronts and 3600 for the rears..

Lemon
Are you talking about the Rotors? Because Suncoast says that it's for a "Front Rotor Set", which, I assume is in a pair.

Well I'm not sure how well I use bias, I'm sure many use it more effectively than me, but at a basic level if the car is tight/understeering under trail braking that indicates the front end is losing grip before the rear, so you dial back the bias to free up more front tire for turning an try to utilize more of that available rear tire.

If the car is getting loose/oversteering and making you drift the corner too much thats an indication the rear is losing grip first and you dial it forward to help the back end have some tire left to grip. Once I get it close to neutral to slightly loose I tend to just leave it for that track layout.

So in that sense its not something I personally fiddle with too much once I get it to a nice place.

I just mention it because street cars almost always have way too much front bias, which means they tend to brake-understeer under aggressive braking/turn in. The contrast is only striking once you've driven a car that trail brakes nicely into controlled rotation. That would be my concern with just throwing on super large disks and calipers up front, I'd be afraid that I just did the equivalent of taking my car to having a much larger front bias, which is usually not the right direction for trail-brake balance IMHO. Obviously from a fade standpoint the larger setup would be better with fade.

But I can appreciate being intimidated to make changes. As with any change you can definitely screw up the bias to the point that its dangerous.
I do know what you mean when you say that street cars have too much front bias. It's also why I wouldn't just ever do a Front BBK, I would do a Front/Rear Setup, and would be aiming to get one from the same company. So, at worst, the OEM Brake Bias is maintained, or potentially even better.

For pricing comparisons, here's what the a BREMBO Kit will run you.

BREMBO GT 380MM (Front) - $4,411.20
BREMBO GT 350MM (Front) - $3,835.20
BREMBO GT 345MM (Rear) - $3,547.20

You're going to be paying about $8,300 for the 380/345 Combo, or about $7,300 for the 350/345 Combo. In addition, would also have to remove them once a year to pass inspection, which is why PCCB Calipers/Steel Rotors are a potentially good choice to us in Hong Kong.
 

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Are there any other options other than BREMBO for a Front/Rear Big Brake Kit?
Quite a few options like stoptech etc are good too. But those all have bridges. The ghetto method is to get those and paint them red + put PORSCHE logo on them. Rumor has it some inspection centers can't tell those are non-OEM brakes when you do that.
 

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I do know what you mean when you say that street cars have too much front bias.
It's just a choice car manufacturers make for safety reasons.

Understeer is a lot easier for inexperienced drivers to react to in that they usually just need to slow down to regain control. When I say a street car has too much front bias I mean that even when you account for the increased grip due to weight transfer under braking, the front brakes will lock up before the rear brakes.

Oversteer requires not only immediate correction it also requires the correct amount of correction from the driver to keep the car from spinning. I'd say in my experience race cars tend to be looser under braking than street cars and this is something you can influence with brake bias.
 

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It's just a choice car manufacturers make for safety reasons.

Understeer is a lot easier for inexperienced drivers to react to in that they usually just need to slow down to regain control. When I say a street car has too much front bias I mean that even when you account for the increased grip due to weight transfer under braking, the front brakes will lock up before the rear brakes.

Oversteer requires not only immediate correction it also requires the correct amount of correction from the driver to keep the car from spinning. I'd say in my experience race cars tend to be looser under braking than street cars and this is something you can influence with brake bias.
Yup. It is really to cover the risk of having less capable drivers (myself included) not able to control the car properly at the limit. I mean stuff like electronic brake distribution, traction control, ABS, etc all that do help manufacturers to dial in more aggressive and more capable handling + braking capabilities. But at the end they can't make things too aggressive for average joes.

I mean this extends into designs of LSDs as well. The stock LSD units on most regular production cars are pretty weak in comparison to the 1.5 way ones you get in aftermarket. The 1.5 way LSDs will lock your rear wheels a lot better under hard braking, which is what's needed if you have more rear bias than what a normal could would have. However, a more aggressive lock doesn't mean it corners better regardless. It's also a matter of whether the driver is able to gain control of the car when the wheels break loose. So car manufacturers also don't put a crazy LSD setup into regular production cars. I mean we all know that having an aggressive lock up LSD would shave lap times down, but the car manufacturers may end up with a pile of lawsuit if things go wrong. That said, that's also why I only put in a torque biased diff into my car. I would rather leave the 1.5 way away until I feel I'm ready for more aggressive hardware in the car.

I have to admit I'm pretty chicken when it comes to these things. I have never turned off my PSM before ...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
It's just a choice car manufacturers make for safety reasons.

Understeer is a lot easier for inexperienced drivers to react to in that they usually just need to slow down to regain control. When I say a street car has too much front bias I mean that even when you account for the increased grip due to weight transfer under braking, the front brakes will lock up before the rear brakes.

Oversteer requires not only immediate correction it also requires the correct amount of correction from the driver to keep the car from spinning. I'd say in my experience race cars tend to be looser under braking than street cars and this is something you can influence with brake bias.
Oh, I completely agree. Understeering is much safer than oversteering. There are only a select few cars that oversteer from factory, but that's mainly due to an excess of power, like the C63.

I would however like to add more brake bias to the rear though, if that was possible somehow. When you go hard on the brakes, all the weight transfers to the front, and puts a lot of weight/stress on the front tires, which overheats them relatively quickly, and causes them to understeer. I reckon this could be helped with a larger front tire too. I'm planning on running a 245/35/19, slightly taller and wider than factory.

Yup. It is really to cover the risk of having less capable drivers (myself included) not able to control the car properly at the limit. I mean stuff like electronic brake distribution, traction control, ABS, etc all that do help manufacturers to dial in more aggressive and more capable handling + braking capabilities. But at the end they can't make things too aggressive for average joes.

I mean this extends into designs of LSDs as well. The stock LSD units on most regular production cars are pretty weak in comparison to the 1.5 way ones you get in aftermarket. The 1.5 way LSDs will lock your rear wheels a lot better under hard braking, which is what's needed if you have more rear bias than what a normal could would have. However, a more aggressive lock doesn't mean it corners better regardless. It's also a matter of whether the driver is able to gain control of the car when the wheels break loose. So car manufacturers also don't put a crazy LSD setup into regular production cars. I mean we all know that having an aggressive lock up LSD would shave lap times down, but the car manufacturers may end up with a pile of lawsuit if things go wrong. That said, that's also why I only put in a torque biased diff into my car. I would rather leave the 1.5 way away until I feel I'm ready for more aggressive hardware in the car.

I have to admit I'm pretty chicken when it comes to these things. I have never turned off my PSM before ...
Completely agree! An LSD is useless, if you're not going to be on the gas in the corner. I've driven cars with and without and LSD, and it feels very similar, if you're not giving it gas during the corners to take advantage of the extra grip. Otherwise, the LSD isn't really doing anything if you're just putting your foot down in the straights.

Porsche designs these cars for the average joes as you say, and many of them are weekend drivers, that have no thought of going to a track, or beating it through canyons and mountain roads quick enough to cook brakes and what-not, so they've got to keep these cars safe and predictable.
 

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Yup ... Porsche was partially liable for a serious crash a few years ago when a Carrera GT crashed into a Ferrari just outside the pit area. The wife of the driver sued Porsche for manufacturing a car that's deemed unsafe due to its lack of electronic stability system, etc. So ya, things like this happens.

I'm not even sure where Paul Walker's crash would end up in terms of lawsuit if there is any, even though the media claims that the car's running on 9 year old tires to begin with.
 

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Yup ... Porsche was partially liable for a serious crash a few years ago when a Carrera GT crashed into a Ferrari just outside the pit area. The wife of the driver sued Porsche for manufacturing a car that's deemed unsafe due to its lack of electronic stability system, etc. So ya, things like this happens.
Really? Do you have some basis for this? I thought Porsche was dismissed from that suit with neither an admission nor a finding of any negligence or liability. BTW, as I recall the CGT crashed at high speed into a relocated wall while the driver was successfully avoiding a Ferrari entering the track. Both CGT occupants died.


Dan
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Without a dual master cylinder and a brake balance bar there is no way to adjust brake bias. In a panic stop the ABS will intervene and dump pressure from the rear brakes causing "Ice Pedal".
 
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