[dombey]

So, a few thoughts to add to the fire:

1. HP numbers get thrown around a lot. It could be a lot less than 350 hp.

2. For a while there, the big news was that VW, Audi, and Porsche would share a new, smaller roadster platform to get scale on a new model.

3. The 981 has clearly gone upscale in nearly every imaginable way... I'm willing to bet average transaction price on the 981 is far and away higher from the 987.

4. The new 911 pricing is also quite high, especially on the "performance" model GT3- that is a HUGE price increase on a % basis over the outgoing model.

In other words... It sounds to me like Porsche might be migrating the sports car model line upwards on the price scale to make room for a third model, it makes sense in the turbo four discussion, and the rumors of platform sharing from a while back also jive.

 

[skrace]

Maybe the 4 cyl. turbo leaves them enough room for the lithium ions to fit in and make weight.

 

[markstudy]

Seems awfully simple to me... there is a shift in the automotive world to smaller engines to meet government regulations. Welcome to the dawn of the turbo. (I still have nightmares from living through the 1980's when everything that moved got a turbo decal slapped on the door)

What use to be an 8 cylinder will get a 6
What use to be a 6 cylinder will get a 4

Technology has improved to get more HP out of smaller engines, and government regulations are forcing every company to go down this path.

Sure, Iconic cars like the 911 will stick with the 6 cylinder, since its part of a 50 year tradition. But, less iconic cars like the Boxster/Cayman will fall under the new way of doing things in the automotive industry.

I remember the days of Ferrari 12 cylinder engines, and cheered when Lambo only used 10 cylinders in the Gallardo. Fast forward to 2015 and engineers are laughing at companies that will still be using 8 cylinders, as it will be considered a dinosaur by modern technology standards.

 

[FrankinCayman]

I am fully looking forward to a turbo flat 4 Cayman. With a minor chip tweak I am sure it will get an extra 50 HP at least.

 

[skrace]

I've lived with KKK's, Garret's, ceramic bearings, clipped, etc. The old Audi 5 cyl. turbos and 944 4 cyl. have all made 600hp+. Now I love the NA's. The severe environment all turbos are asked to live in in my opinion makes them the weak link in reliability. I can't imagine trying to keep 4 of them together in the Veyron. They all get replaced at some point in all their variations. $$$

 

[tony.podrasky]

Based on Porsche's "fine" reliability record when introducing new engines, if this is out in 2014 it should make for a safe purchase some time around 2020.

Hello logicalthought & al;

Yeah - as any of us Gen-1 owners feel when we wonder if the IMS bearing or water pump is going to go out.

I took my Cayman in for the yearly once-over and they found that the camshaft cover seals are seeping oil. That's 3 days of down time @ a kilobuck/day

The good news is:

o When I bought the car, Porsche said that the clutch was grabbing late. That's not a
problem for me - but if I sell it it could be a problem for the next buyer - or a
negotiation issue. The service writer said that as long as we have the tranny out of
the car, we can replace the clutch for free + parts.

o They're going to give me a Carrera w/PDK loaner for the 3 days.

regards,
tony.podrasky

 

[tony.podrasky]

where's the logic in adding an engine and all that it requires, when you're in the middle of consolidating?

Hello stratman & al;

Having been thru A LOT of acquisitions (Super Computer Field), it is possible that being allowed to create this new engine was a bargaining point.

If the engine designers are anywhere nearly as radical as I am, they would have pushed the issue with an ultimatum.


Case In Point:

I worked for a Super Computer company. When the company tanked, and they were in negotiation to sell it, the only thing worth selling was the field service division - which consisted of about 20 Field Engineers. The company had service contracts with their customers and those service contracts were pulling in quite a few million dollars a year.

The head engineer called each one of us and made the following proposal: "We tell them that we want 6-month's salary put into our 401k - or we all quit. Are you with me?"

Everyone got on board.

The engineer went into the CEO's office the next day:

CEO: What's up?
Head Engineer (HE): You're getting a great severance package - and we thought we should get a piece of the action too: We want 6-mo salary put into our 401k's - or we all quit.

CEO: [after he stops laughing]. That was great! Tell me 'nother one.
HE: Oh - OK - how 'bout this: if we all quit, you've got nothing to sell the buyer - and you'll lose your golden parachute!

CEO: [acts like he's laughing - but is about to wet his pants] You can't do that!
HE: Sure we can - we're not under any contract - and I have all the FEs signed-up.

CEO: But the negotiations are about to close.
HE: Then I suggest you call the buyer REAL FAST and let him know before it closes - because now that YOU KNOW what we're going to do, you're gonna have to tell them or they'll sue you into the next dimension!
HE: Let me know when you make a decision. Oh - and by-the-way, that is what we call "CHECKMATE". Bye...

We won.

regards,
tony.podrasky

 

[stratman]

Not disagreeing with your assessment, but just wondering, BMW did just that with the 3 series...offered a 4 cyl turbo in the 3 series

I'm not familiar with BMW's modus operandi to make an educated response, but ultimately they went back to a six for the M3. How many years did the M3 have a four banger? Was it the time when BMW was experimenting with all kinds of displacements and they were on a green kick, with their E (Eta) engines? I'm not really familiar with BMW and their development history.

 

[stratman]

I personally don't believe Porsche will build this, another division might. My conclusion: it doesn't make financial sense.

Porsche has been spending millions, perhaps billions in the last four years bringing new technology and models to market, plus the take over of VW fiasco, that cost a pretty penny in legal woes.

CAFE is not a problem for VW. So get that equation out of the T4 argument.

A new model, like the ghost 550? Matthias Muller basically killed that proposition.

Build a T4 for the rumored, Preuninger confirmed, management to approve Super Cayman? You already have a new, tested, certified and economically produced motor. Where's the logic or the benefit of introducing a new powerplant? It's being installed in a low volume sports car not a Prius, the existing engines are more fuel efficient than the competition, mostly V6s and V8s.


The 9A1 is only four years old.


In my opinion, the Cayman GT4 has a better shot at production (with all it's off the shelf components) than the T4 motor has at seeing daylight.

 

[sal2415]

This Will happen to compete with Alfa and Mazzeratti, Both coming out with new turbo 4 in 14 and 15.... Watch!!!!:banana:

 

[stratman]

This Will happen to compete with Alfa and Mazzeratti, Both coming out with new turbo 4 in 14 and 15.... Watch!!!!:banana:

How will a new smaller engine be beneficial in competing with Maserati? The competitive price points for the Maserati coupe and its variants is the 911 series and Panameras for the sedans, I don't see how a Turbo Four will offer any advantage. And if Maserati comes out with a T4 car, what logic is there in Porsche employing a smaller engine? Keep the flat six and have room for more power than a T4, again advantage Porsche.

Compete with Alfa? Depending on horsepower output by Alfa, all Porsche would have to do is mildly tune the flat six, which has more room for development, than a strung out flat four with a turbo. A major hurdle that engineers at Weissach are going to wrestle with will be heat management, the Cayman runs hot as it is with a normally aspirated engine, slap a T4 and I wouldn't want to buy the first generation of that car.

 

[stratman]

This new creature has a 9A1 and PDK and no T4, just like our "lowly" reptiles:

 

[UStifosi]

Will Porsche be piping in sounds of a flat 6 through the speakers to appease the masses since turbo 4's don't emit the most appealing noises.

What if this engine sounds like a WRX STi. Now that would be funny:crazy:

 

[008]

Not sure what all the debate is about. Porsche has said they are building a turbo 4 for the base cayman and boxster. It still probably be about 290 hp and the S will move to about 345 and keep the flat six.

 

[GBlansten]

Will Porsche be piping in sounds of a flat 6 through the speakers to appease the masses since turbo 4's don't emit the most appealing noises.

What if this engine sounds like a WRX STi. Now that would be funny:crazy:

That's what I was wondering. Do you even bother to offer a PSE with a turbo 4? What would that sound like?

 

[gcurnew]

If the rumors turn out to be true, my 2014 BS will be a keeper. I get the BMW/Audi and now apparently Porsche rationale for turbos: smaller displacement, better fuel economy, increased torque/horsepower. Problem is, any turbo car I've ever driven leaves me thinking "man, what a lazy a** way to make power." Suffice to say I'm EXTREMELY happy to have a flat-6 981 BS with a 6-speed on the way, and a stunningly curvaceous '12 987 CS to park beside it.

 

[CaymanEuro2014]

Car and Drivers take on this yesterday.

Porsche's Flat-Four is in the Works, but Won't See the Light of Day Any Time Soon

 

[stratman]

"A call to Stuttgart quickly produced yet another confirmation of the project’s ongoing status; the optimistic timeframe, however, was roundly dismissed. The engine will require significantly more time in development, and there are no plans to put it into the current generations of the relatively fresh Boxster or the brand-new Cayman. (A sub-Boxster, entry-level roadster—which has been reported as a potential recipient of the new flat-four—isn’t exactly dead, but it’s been put on hold indefinitely.)" CAR AND DRIVER

The sub-Boxster, called by few the 550, was called a dead project by Matthias Muller in many interviews.
It doesn't make sense to put the T4 into current production 981s, why would anyone with two fingers of sense put an untried four cylinder engine in a current production car, that's brand new?
Porsche is an evolutionary company, just look at their history of car development, all 4 cylinder water cooled cars stayed four cylinders, some got turbos, but they never went up to 6.
For pete's sake the engine hasn't even been fully developed and people are already stuffing it into 991s and 981s. Please let's get a grip here, no Cayman/Boxster/911 is in danger of getting a turbo four banger.

BTW, Porsche Development is known to do crazy things, Piech's Flat 8 Cayman?

 

[stratman]

I love how these "press" people can pick up a phone, call their "contacts" and have instant information on "black" projects being developed over at Stuttgart. Yet, when the new Boxster and Cayman were announced, all they could get were spy photos and details that never materialized, I give this to Porsche they play these guys just like the military (area 51) plays the E.T. worshipers. I don't think an engineer with a SIGNED disclosure contract, would jeopardize his position, when there's nothing to gain.

 

[stratman]

This is how VW Group is slotting mid engined/sport platform:


MSB - How would you like your rear-wheel drive?

(RWD/AWD, front-, mid-, or rear-engine architecture) Conspicuously absent from VW Group's other two platforms are the group's halo brands - with the exception of the Cayenne and the EXP 9 F, it seems that Porsche, Bentley, and Lamborghini are missing out on VW's engineering revolution. (Of course, it is assumed that Bugatti will continue to use its own bespoke engineering.)

That is why Porsche's engineers are the masterminds behind the MSB platform that will underpin all of the group's rear-wheel drive based cars. MSB will come in three flavors, all depending on where the engine is places: front, mid, or rear.
MSB-M - mid-engined, rear- and all-wheel drive

Porsche 960, a four-door coupe due in late 2015. The 960 will be the lead car for the new MSB-M platform; it has been dubbed "Fefi," for Ferrari fighter, and will use a twin-turbo flat-six not a V-8.

VW Bluesport/Audi R5/Porsche Speedster, no confirmed timeframe yet to the on-again/off-again nature of the project; however, the most recent reports say that the "Mimo" project is still very much alive and kicking.

Next-gen 982 Porsche Boxster/Cayman -- despite the current 981-generation Boxster just debuting at the Geneva show (and the Cayman yet to premiere) the next-gen is already well underway.

Lamborghini Aventador replacement - similar to the Boxster/Cayman, the current Aventador is only just out of the gate. Expect this to be one of the last new models from the first round of MSB-M cars, given the long average lifespan of the Raging Bull's V-12 flagships.

Eventual follow-ups to the still-to-be-renewed Audi R8 and Lamborghini Gallardo.

At least the R8 is getting a facelift next year to help keep it fresh.


MSB-F - front-engined, rear- and all-wheel drive

Starting in 2017, we'll see the third-generation of the Bentley Continental range. All three models (GT coupe, GTC convertible, and Flying Spur sedan) have been renewed again.

Baby Porsche Panamera: known so far as the Pajun, the BMW 5 Series-rivaling Porsche could also spawn a smaller Bentley sedan, though that car has yet to be confirmed.

Second-generation Porsche Panamera -- you'll have to wait a while for this one, as the current Panamera only just finished rolling out its full model line at the end of last year with the Panamera GTS, and the facelift for the range will start no earlier than late next year.

MSB-H - rear-engined, rear- and all-wheel drive

Surprise! At this point, the rear-engine is and will remain to be exclusive to the Porsche 911 and its 20-something variations. The MSB-H will underpin the follow-up to the just-released 991-generation 911, so don't expect to see this any time before 2017.


Read more: Deep Dive: Volkswagen Group's Product Plans - Automobile Magazine

CAUTION: TAKE ALL OF THIS WITH A POUND OF SALT, ONLY POLITICIANS ARE MORE FINICKY AND DEVIOUS THAN THE AUTO INDUSTRY. AS THEY SAY, NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE, SALES NUMBERS AND CHANGES WITHIN THE MANAGING BOARD WILL AFFECT PLANS DOWN TO THE LAST.


Please read this, you'll understand where we (Porsche) are headed:


http://www.volkswagenag.com/content...n.acq/qual-BinaryStorageItem.Single.File/Deutsche Bank Presentation Handout.pdf