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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello Brain Trust,

I'm new to the boards and have my first serious conundrum regarding a purchase of a 2011 Cayman S. The seller is a friend of mine and has full dealer service records and has tracked the car ~15-20 HPDE days. Car has 27,300 miles and 593 hours.

We have a deal predicated on the Porsche Dealership PPI report. I just the received the results back and the BIG concern is on the over revs. They look like this:

Range............Ignitions.............Hours...............Time (seconds)

1.................50,979.................... 530................ 136
2...................2627......................495................ 7
3....................60.........................432............... .15
4...................209........................432............... .5
5...................170........................432............... .35
6....................0.............................0................ 0

I think I calculated the time correctly, but chime in if you spot an error.

The guys in the service dept. say not to worry because the range 4 & 5 were long ago and the time was very short. This seems to be in direct conflict with the chart at the bottom of this page: Cayman Register - FAQ


Any advise here? My gut tells me to walk.

Thanks in advance,

Randy




[HR][/HR]FAQ Information:
 

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From Durametric website---
The 6 ranges can be broken down as:
Range 1: 7300-7500 RPM
Range 2: 7500-7700 RPM
Range 3: 7700-7900 RPM
Range 4: 7900-8400 RPM
Range 5: 8400-9500 RPM
Range 6: 9500-11000 RPM

The number is the number of ignitions in each of these ranges.
The factory tool does not display the hours for each of these ranges, but the information is available so we display it here. The hour indicates the last operating hour that this range occurred

so--- this engine has seen at least 8400 rpm for 170 revolutions ( a bit more than one second) The service guys are probably correct that if significant time has elapsed since then that the engine is ok, but someone downshifted early and over reved it. What about warranty? I would worry and would likely walk. MY engine shows 60 level 2s and ONE level 3 and even THAT worries me a bit. Like yours they occurred long before I got the car. Mine does have about 2200 level 1s and I DID do some of those and I felt the rev limiter when I hit it in each case. Simply holding a gear too long will hit the rev limiter and scare you but it will only result in a level 1 overrev based on my experience.

 

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Hahaha that's funny, I've seen that info elsewhere before in terms of those exact descriptions for each rev range but I digress...

First question - How many hours does the engine have on it now?

Second question - Are you getting a warranty of any kind?


Depending upon your answers to those questions I could provide you a little better guidance. Keep in mind this is a 2011 car without the intermediate shaft and in an engine that has better oiling and is better able to withstand higher revs than the prior engines so that chart you ran across and the ranges that have been discussed here many many times are more applicable to the earlier engines than the newer engines. In other words, all things being equal I would feel better about this report on a 2011 Cayman S than say a 2006 Cayman S, but let's start with your answer to my questions first. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank for the help K-Man

The engine has 593 hours on it.

No warranty on the car. It's at 4 years 2 months.
 

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Thank for the help K-Man

The engine has 593 hours on it.

No warranty on the car. It's at 4 years 2 months.

So the engine has roughly 160 hours on it since the missed shift or whatever cause that high of a momentary over-rev. Additionally no aftermarket warranty or Porsche PPO warranty.

Most likely if anything catastrophic was going to happen with the engine it would have happened by now, 160 hours is over 1/4 of that engine's life to date and probably something around 7,000 miles since the incident. While it is no guarantee that something won't go wrong in the future, there is absolutely no way to tell if there is anything that is prematurely worn and going to fail earlier than normal without tearing down the engine and that's expensive. In other words, it is all a GUESS.

Like anything in life sometimes we guess right, sometimes we guess wrong. You could have a brand new car with an engine defect from the factory that fails in under 7,000 miles, but if that happens you have a warranty to fall back on. In this instance you don't have a warranty so again, it is a gamble.

If it were ME and I really liked this car, and this was the car I wanted, I would see what an extended warranty (one that covers engine failures and is from a reputable company) would cost for the car and then I'd try to get at least that much off the price so as to buy peace of mind. No harm in telling the seller "Hey you've got a car that potentially could have engine problems, I want to get an aftermarket warranty to cover my exposure and therefore I need you to take $X off the price of the car". The seller can either agree or refuse to lower their price and hope to find another buyer if you walk away.

If I didn't care about this car and I felt like there were lots of other cars out there that fit what I want then I'd walk away and find one without the potential problem, but just because it has a "potential" problem doesn't mean it will actually have one and shouldn't be the only factor to rule out the car, it is simply one factor against, and you need to weigh all the factors that are important to you against the price of the car.

Make sense?

BTW, welcome to the site! Tell your friends! :)
 

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Will you be putting it on the track, and if so, at what driver level?

For a car that is tracked (or aggressively driven), ranges 1-3 can easily be recorded from bumping into the rev limiter, especially if the car is driven in Sport Mode. I wouldn't be at all worried about ranges 1-3. Nor would I be concerned about the relatively small number of ignitions in range 4, particularly since it was a long time ago. However, range 5, would make me a bit uncomfortable, albeit tempered by the fact that it too is old. So, as Ken posed: do you want this car enough to accept the risk?

Also remember that the readings are cumulative with the hours indicating the last ignition in the range. Thus, the range 5 could have been several momentary visits spread over the 432 hours. There's no way to tell when they actually occurred.
 

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Hahaha that's funny, I've seen that info elsewhere before in terms of those exact descriptions for each rev range but I digress...

Yes-- Ken Me too. Was it your post I saw? Perhaps credit was due:) Regardless- I did go to Durametric's site and verify and copy and paste from there to make sure any info I shared was accurate. I like your reasoning about the 9A1s being more tolerant of some overrevs. I really hope that proves to be true over the long haul.
 

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Personally I would never buy a car with over-revs in range 4 or higher. It's been many years since I read the descriptions for ranges 4 and 5, but my recollection is that range 4 over-revs may cause engine damage and range 5 is likely to cause engine damage.

Even if the car was covered by a Porsche warranty, any events in these ignition ranges would introduce a potential problem if there was a warranty claim. A special 'exploratory claim' would have to be made before Porsche agreed to cover any costs (but it has given them a reason not to pay the claim). The service shop would likely be asked to do a compression leak down test or a spark plug test for any events in the mid/higher IRs before any warranty claim consideration. If any issue arises within 50 hours of the over-rev event, it would be cause for warranty invalidation. In short, any events in these over-rev segments may invalidate the Porsche warranty at the manufacturer's discretion.
If you really like the car I would certainly pay for a compression leak down test, before I made my purchase.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So the engine has roughly 160 hours on it since the missed shift or whatever cause that high of a momentary over-rev. Additionally no aftermarket warranty or Porsche PPO warranty.

Most likely if anything catastrophic was going to happen with the engine it would have happened by now, 160 hours is over 1/4 of that engine's life to date and probably something around 7,000 miles since the incident. While it is no guarantee that something won't go wrong in the future, there is absolutely no way to tell if there is anything that is prematurely worn and going to fail earlier than normal without tearing down the engine and that's expensive. In other words, it is all a GUESS.

Like anything in life sometimes we guess right, sometimes we guess wrong. You could have a brand new car with an engine defect from the factory that fails in under 7,000 miles, but if that happens you have a warranty to fall back on. In this instance you don't have a warranty so again, it is a gamble.

If it were ME and I really liked this car, and this was the car I wanted, I would see what an extended warranty (one that covers engine failures and is from a reputable company) would cost for the car and then I'd try to get at least that much off the price so as to buy peace of mind. No harm in telling the seller "Hey you've got a car that potentially could have engine problems, I want to get an aftermarket warranty to cover my exposure and therefore I need you to take $X off the price of the car". The seller can either agree or refuse to lower their price and hope to find another buyer if you walk away.

If I didn't care about this car and I felt like there were lots of other cars out there that fit what I want then I'd walk away and find one without the potential problem, but just because it has a "potential" problem doesn't mean it will actually have one and shouldn't be the only factor to rule out the car, it is simply one factor against, and you need to weigh all the factors that are important to you against the price of the car.

Make sense?

BTW, welcome to the site! Tell your friends! :)
Makes perfect sense. Very thoughtful comments here K-man. My intent with this car is to do ~4-6 DE days yearly with normal weekend driving on the road. The car in question is only special to the extent that is is fully optioned and a MT. The MSRP was 93K. I've never seen a Cayman so well appointed.

Our agreed price is a solid deal for me, or you might say friend/bro deal. With the over rev's, the solid deal becomes maybe a good deal, depending on what risk I want to take with the engine. There is no room for further negotiations since if I don't purchase the car, he will keep it for his DD and track his other car (GT3). An outcome that he's OK with because he's still a bit attached to the car. (He ordered this car and picked it up in Germany, so there he has history)

I will be making my final decision by the end of this holiday weekend. In the meantime, I appreciate all of the comments on this board. I'll let you know how this sorts out.

Randy
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Will you be putting it on the track, and if so, at what driver level?

For a car that is tracked (or aggressively driven), ranges 1-3 can easily be recorded from bumping into the rev limiter, especially if the car is driven in Sport Mode. I wouldn't be at all worried about ranges 1-3. Nor would I be concerned about the relatively small number of ignitions in range 4, particularly since it was a long time ago. However, range 5, would make me a bit uncomfortable, albeit tempered by the fact that it too is old. So, as Ken posed: do you want this car enough to accept the risk?

Also remember that the readings are cumulative with the hours indicating the last ignition in the range. Thus, the range 5 could have been several momentary visits spread over the 432 hours. There's no way to tell when they actually occurred.
I am a complete novice and have done exactly one DE day. It was enough though to prompt me to sell my Cobra Replica and pursue a proper modern track/road car.

It took some time but I do finally understand how to interpret the DME download.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I asked about a compression test at the dealership when I set up the PPI. The service writer told me that a compression test was unnecessary because somehow the DME download would give sensor reading confirming compression.
 

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I asked about a compression test at the dealership when I set up the PPI. The service writer told me that a compression test was unnecessary because somehow the DME download would give sensor reading confirming compression.
There pulling your chain.That's simply not true. carl
 

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I'd come at this from a different perspective. It's an out-of-warranty used car that could be relatively expensive to fix if something goes wrong that isn't driveline-related. Can you envision a situation where that could negatively impact your relationship with the seller, and do you care? Now ratchet that up to a full-blown engine meltdown in the first few months of ownership. Impact? Do you care if the relationship goes south as a result? If you think the engine melting down could have the same effect on the relationship and you care, then look at getting an aftermarket warranty or buy elsewhere.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'd come at this from a different perspective. It's an out-of-warranty used car that could be relatively expensive to fix if something goes wrong that isn't driveline-related. Can you envision a situation where that could negatively impact your relationship with the seller, and do you care? Not ratchet that up to a full-blown engine meltdown in the first few months of ownership. Impact? Do you care if the relationship goes south as a result? If you think the engine melting down could have the same effect on the relationship and you care, then look at getting an aftermarket warranty or buy elsewhere.
I build and raced motorX bikes in my early days and then moved on to cars and ultimately built a Cobra Replica. I've also owned a commercial mechanical company for the last 29 year. That being said, I'm not and engine/transmission rebuild guy, but I'm not afraid of most other systems in a car.

Regarding the friendship, I feel confident that we both understand that if we make a deal, it's done. No looking back and no regrets on either side. Doing my "due diligents" on this car (and sharing them with the seller) will serve both of us. And BTW, I sent him a link to this thread.
 

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If there is even a question, I'd move on regardless of price, friendship or whatever.

I posted a thread this week about a nicely optioned 2010 CS with 20,000 miles on pca.org. I'd bet that car is like new, with no tracks days and no over-rev issues. The seller wants $40,000

Given the above and the uncertainly of the issues on the CS in your OP, the price would have to be below 30 grand to illicit any interest from me. And even at that price, a new engine is way more than what you might be saving for a no issues CS like on pca.org versus the "it might have issues" CS.

Good luck,

Eddie

P.S. If you are inclined, please post the price of the CS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
If there is even a question, I'd move on regardless of price, friendship or whatever.

I posted a thread this week about a nicely optioned 2010 CS with 20,000 miles on pca.org. I'd bet that car is like new, with no tracks days and no over-rev issues. The seller wants $40,000

Given the above and the uncertainly of the issues on the CS in your OP, the price would have to be below 30 grand to illicit any interest from me. And even at that price, a new engine is way more than what you might be saving for a no issues CS like on pca.org versus the "it might have issues" CS.

Good luck,

Eddie

P.S. If you are inclined, please post the price of the CS.
Eddie,

That blue 2010 does look good. That begs another question, the blue CS is in Texas, I'm in California, so what emissions issues would I have to deal with bringing a car into Ca?

The local 2011 CS I'm looking at had a sticker price 20K above the blue CS in Texas and comes with an extra set of high end wheels. Cost of both cars is close.
 

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My knowledge on this is limited, but I'd say no emission concerns since it has over 7,500 miles. Also, call Porsche CS (1-800-767-7243) as they may be able to tell you if all cars are 50 state emission approved.

I did not know a 2011 CS could have an MSRP of 90+ grand. Man, that is one loaded Cayman.


Good luck,

Eddie

Eddie,

That blue 2010 does look good. That begs another question, the blue CS is in Texas, I'm in California, so what emissions issues would I have to deal with bringing a car into Ca?

The local 2011 CS I'm looking at had a sticker price 20K above the blue CS in Texas and comes with an extra set of high end wheels. Cost of both cars is close.
 

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Yes, it is the best build sheet I've ever seen in a Cayman/Boxster. There in is my dilemma, fantastic build, well maintained, very good condition, extra high end wheels, AND heavily tracked with over revs = $$??
 

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Once again, do not post protected intellectual property from a Password protected Porsche website. If you want to know the options on a car, talk to your SA.
 
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