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Jonez- Please look at mgarcia048's thread "track build 987.1" showing his prep with his engine and his final result. What ever he did was not covering the fundamental issue with his 3.4 m97 motor. He has not opened the case yet to actually see what happened inside, but from his comments, it seems to be a rod bearing. You can see he had as much protection for the oil issue as could be expected, but still it occurred. He did not say his shift points (potential rod bolts failure), or if the last corner at Sebring was a long left hand sweeper, where the frothy oil could have accumulated in the head due to the placement of the oil salvage pump. An additional dual scanavenger pump and a MotorSports AOS to pull the oil forth enriched air from the heads would certainly aided the engine as the accusump never was activated.

I suspect that the oil pressure was affected, but not enough to light up his preset 25 psi red light. He also claims that the 996 swirl pots had nothing to do with the engine failure. His engine had about 25 hours of track time on the clock and about 48,000 miles of daily driving. Maybe prudent Blackstone oil analysis should be done once a year to baseline the bearing minerals that break down into the oil. Again read the articule from RAT/540 regarding engine oil boundry layer breakdown as measured by PSI to prevent rod bearing scarring and which ones offer additional protection when the oil pressure is reduced.

Take a look at the bottom of his Mantis deep sump post #17 of this thread. You can see numerous scratch marks on the face plate, which could be an issue solved by the LN skid plate.

Lots of small details to think about to protect and save you engine.
 

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The obvious solution is to just kick out the rear end and drift all the long sweepers. That way, the oil will be split evenly between both heads!
We can laugh, but that is a legitimate solution. If you don't spill the cup of water, you won't ruin the tofu.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Thanks for the all tips! Haha it's been a while since I've watched Initial D should give that another play through.

I haven't decided on which sump kit I'm going to order yet. Our track season doesn't start until May (it's -25C here right now) so I have some time to finish collecting parts. In my last order I purchased a low temp thermostat. On our warmest track days it's <30C and usually around 20-25C. We don't have as warm a climate in Canada as a lot of other countries. I think I have the rest covered. I may replace the AOS with a new OEM one.

Something I probably should have said earlier is the previous car I ran at HPDE days was my daily driver and so is my Cayman. I don't drive overly aggressive or take risks; I've never put wheels in the grass on any of the tracks I've been on. My Mini was lowered with all new suspension on r-comps so I had a skid plate which was mostly to deal with speed bumps in the city. I'm not planning on doing any suspension work this year. If I did it would be sway bars. The best way to improve lap times on our track is tightening the suspension our back straight is less than a kilometer long so power doesn't do a lot for you. The current track record is nearly tied by a formula BMW race car and an LS swapped street legal Miata. Those cars are just over a 1:10, good drivers at time attacks average 1:16's, my best is a 1:21 and my average on HPDE days is 1:23. Overall average for the track is around a 1:25. I'm not slow but I'm by no means fast either.

I don't expect to be pulling great lap times my first season out. I'm going from a low HP FWD Mini to a high HP (for me) RWD mid engine car that I don't want to wreck. I have a lot to learn before I can start pushing the car :)
 

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We can laugh, but that is a legitimate solution. If you don't spill the cup of water, you won't ruin the tofu.
Hahahahaha, that was such a ridiculous premise. The whole Initial D universe seemed to be nothing but a comic book artist's misconceptions about motorsports and driving in general.

It wouldn't work for our heads, either. Show drift cars have to be modified to allow the insane steering angles they need to sustain those ultra-high slip angles. Even if you did decide to destroy your rear tires in some misguided attempt, it wouldn't help; you'd be revving at way higher than necessary RPM and still getting all the oil pooling on one side. Though, actually.... now that I think about it... it might just work: as drifting is so much slower around a corner that max g-forces would be reduced significantly and the stock pumps would likely work just fine. So, yeah, drift those sweepers and nevermind AMP has walls like 2' off every corner.
:taunt:
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I've seen people drift through 9 and they usually get black flagged. Marshals aren't very fond of seeing your nose pointing at them from a basically unprotected wooden platform as you slide through the corner :D
 

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We can laugh, but that is a legitimate solution. If you don't spill the cup of water, you won't ruin the tofu.
Hahahahaha, that was such a ridiculous premise. The whole Initial D universe seemed to be nothing but a comic book artist's misconceptions about motorsports and driving in general.
I can't be the only one who realizes the whole "ruin the tofu" thing was bullshit and the real reason for it was to promote smooth control inputs in the main character, right?
 

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I can't be the only one who realizes the whole "ruin the tofu" thing was bullshit and the real reason for it was to promote smooth control inputs in the main character, right?
I know that was the premise, but the whole smoothness thing is bunk. Even if he drives perfectly smooth, he'd have to drive like a granny: if he's accelerating, cornering, and braking at anything more than about 0.1 g, that water is going to be all over the car. In reality, the water will be sloshed at more than a 45 degree angle from g-forces alone, with much more than that in transitions.

 

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Discussion Starter #29
Ordered the 2L Mantis sump today! Since we're both in Canada they gave me a great deal on it. Shipped it the same day too. Great guys highly recommend!
 

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Your deep Mantis sump will serve you well. I was told by LN to fill the sump to about 1/2 on the oil gauge. The oil at full sump will be subject to a lot of sloshing around, particularlly on top of the windage plate and may damage your AOS. Your protection may be ok as long as you do not use R rated tires.

With R rated tires another level of protection needs to be added, which includes a deep sump with windage tray, a 987.1 Porsche Motorsports AOS with an increased filteration system and a dual scavenger oil pump for the head. This pump connects with a steel braided line opposite end of the head to suck out vapors and oil. The 9A1 engines have 5 oil pumps vs our 3, so even with this added pump, the head oil scavenge is still not as robust as the 2009 and later Caymans.

Another idea is to make sure you have a high temp rated engine oil especially if you run without the 3rd radiator and has a anti foam additive. Check the web thread 540/RAT for the foam additive and high oil temp rating.

The 996 AOS can be made to fit, but guys on that web site also have AOS oiling issues, but not as often as the 987.1 Cayman.

You may also want to check the face of the sump for scratch marks after the season is over to see if a LN skid plate is warranted.

Have fun at the track.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I asked on our track forum and two other Cayman owners have used the Mantis sump without problems at our track. Nobody had tried the LN kit to compare but I'm sure it's a great kit too. Over revving seems to be a common trend with blown engines, shifting at 6k like someone said earlier in this thread seems like a smart move.

I've been looking at the Motorsports AOS and prices are all over the map. Suncoast sells them for $1800 and 5150 Motorsports sells them for $780 (needs a few other small parts). Where did you get yours from?

For oil I'm looking at Joe Gibbs DT40. I do oil changes in October and April. Occasionally we'll drop below 0 (-10-15 at most) in April so running anything higher than 5w could be an issue. Since I'm installing a 3rd rad + low temp thermostat I'm going to flush that at the same time.

Will do thanks! Do you have any videos of you lapping? Link here or PM me if you do :)
 

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The Porsche Motorsports AOS comes in two versions, 987.1 verson and the 996 version. The 987.1 fit our cars and 996 version have some modificatiions to do. Porsche knew that the M97 engine needed more oil air filtration so they developed that unit for our cars, thus more expensive. Even with this expense, (GT on P9 web site) has gone thru 3 of these over the years.

LN has a fleet of 11 Caymans that they prep for a couple of different class racers, that is their test bed along with a great number of customers through BRS. They also are in partnership with Bilt. I am sure they have data from the race teams regarding oil pressures around each track as it is included in their data mapping for their car setups. They rebuild motors as well through BRS for their race teams and customers, so they have a good idea of what works.

They are very big into the Porsche Motorsports AOS as the center point for keeping the heads clear of frothy oil through the vacuum side of the head oil pumps. So, I will be having the 3rd oil pump (TTP dual scavanger oil safe) installed this coming month along with the spin on oil filter base with a billet (60 micron race filter and magnet) to reduce back pressure. FVD has one in their oil kit that they sell for $2995.

So a big bill from Cantrell Motor Sports for the center 997 CFS Race Radiator (larger size but will fit), TTP head Scavenger oil/vacuum dual pump, base for the oil screw on oil filter, a little suspension work, yearly brake flush and race prep inspection sheet for PCA.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Ah that makes sense, the part number on 5150 starts with 996 so it must be the other version. Thanks that's good to know!
 

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Great thread and info!

Last year I had 6 hours of track time at COTA, 2.5 hours at MSR-H, plus two autocrosses. I'm not super quick but I'm in the Blue-Solo group so not super slow either.

- LN 2 qt Deep Sump Kit w/ baffle and windage tray
- Stock AOS, stock power steering, stock pulley
- Factory PCCB brakes w/ Castrol SRF (no ducting or other modifications)
- Stock PASM suspension w/ max negative camber in front
- OZ wheels w/ RE-71R tires for autocross and track

I was fine tracking the car in colder winter months without cooling issues, but have a 3rd center radiator kit ready to install for this coming year. It's a necessity for the warmer weather. Also have an LN power steering cooler kit ready to install. No issues with the PS system, just thinking preventative.

The two mechanical items that are on my Wish List right now are a low temp thermostat and Motorsport AOS. The thermostat to aid in keeping oil temps down. When I was at COTA I didn't have any major AOS situation, but I did notice I was getting a little smoke on start up after letting the car sit between runs. The same happened at MSR-H but even slightly more smoke. I was running the car harder at MSR-H and that track is more technical with very quick turn transitions, unlike COTA which is much more smooth and gradual. Have a new factory AOS ready to install, but hesitant to install since thinking of just going with the Motorsport version.

Apex1, thanks for the heads up on the oil fill level when using LN's sump. I hadn't heard that and have been running my oil at the max level. Careful to not overfill, but high enough to fill the top section in the level read out. Perhaps that was the reason I was getting a bit of smoke at the track? I'll start running it at 3/4 on the dash read out.

I've been running exclusively Motul 8100 X-cess 5w40. Have thought about switching to something like Mobil 1 Racing 5w50 or a Driven oil. Something more focused on protecting during track days, but still runnable for 3-5,000 miles or so. I don't mind paying for what is best. What do you suggest?

The factory PCCB is the greatest thing in the world! No fading, no overheating, just flawless braking time after time after time. I'll likely eventually switch to steel Girodisc rotors and have brake issues to contend with.

 

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I found a dual scavanger head pump from TTP (Oil Safe Kit). This kit has the steel braided line to the opposite end of the head. LN's tech person says that is the oil vapor/froth capacity on the vacuum side of the OEM AOS needs are higher when racing, thus the Porsche Motorsports version to pull the frothy oil out of the head and also drain the liquid oil. The 3 radiator, the 3rd scavenge pump and the Motorsports AOS should be your insurance policy for a great year at the track.

Engine oil protection, Mobil FS brand 0W-40 is rated #6 by RAT/540 in his recent testing of 200 oils. The 5W-50 Mobil is way down the list. Driven Joe Gibbs 5W-40 is ranked #50 in PSI destruction testing, which mimics our rod bearing #6 distruction with oil starvation. The viscosity of Mobil 0W-40 allows this oil to flow out of the heads quickly and they do have additives to prevent foam in the heads. So, my suggestion is if you do not want to fill with $12.00/qt of Amsoil 5W-30 which is ranked #3, then the Mobil 0W-40 FS is my next choice. I would go back an read the whole oil story to get the significance of this oil to our partular engine M97 vs other Porsche engine requirements. The Mobil 0W-40 FS even works well at 275 degrees, which is exceptional. So the take away is #6 in PSI to destruction, very high degree temp to distruction and lower viscosity to allow oil flow from the heads. Also has additives to reduce foam formation. It seems that Mobil is really looking at the higher distruction tempiture with their premium oils now due to the increase of turbo's and the coking issue of some oils.

Are your brake calipers turning brown yet, forgot you are using carbon disc's. The rear does not have any brake duct cooling, unless you did that. The 997 Turbo ducts will work for your rear and are clip on's. I have GT2 rear ducts that are banded to the Tarett Cup LCA's. Seem to work fine on my steel rear rotors, fronts ducts are GT2's.
 

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I found a Porsche brand tandem 3rd oil scavenger dual pump from Pelican Parts for $519. This part then needs the steel braided line to a spin on oil filter that has a receptical for that oil line. Another vacuum hose goes to the AOS. LN's tech person says that is the oil vapor/froth capacity on the vacuum side of the OEM AOS that needs are higher, thus the Porsche Motorsports version to pull the frothy oil out of the head and also drain the liquid oil. The 3 radiator, the 3rd scavenge pump and the Motorsports AOS should be your insurance policy for a great year at the track.

Engine oil protection, Mobil FS brand 0W-40 is rated #6 by RAT/540 in his recent testing of 200 oils. The 5W-50 Mobil is way down the list. Driven Joe Gibbs 5W-40 is ranked #50 in PSI destruction testing, which mimics our rod bearing distruction with oil starvation. The viscosity of Mobil 0W-40 allows this oil to flow out of the heads quickly and they do have additives to prevent foam in the heads. So, my suggestion is if you do not want to fill with $12.00/qt of Amsoil 5W-30 which is ranked #3, then the Mobil 0W-40 FS is my next choice. I would go back an read the whole oil story to get the significance of this oil to our partular engine M97 vs other Porsche engine requirements. The Mobil 0W-40 FS even works well at 275 degrees, which is exceptional. So the take away is #6 in PSI to destruction, very high degree temp to distruction and lower viscosity to allow oil flow from the heads. Also has additives to reduce foam formation. The question is can you actually get the FS label product here in the US. It appears to be changed to the M brand? What else did Mobil do to this oil in their recent reformulation to the m label? It seems that Mobil is really looking at the higher distruction tempiture with their premium oils now due to the increase of turbo's and the coking issue of some oils.

Are your brake calipers turning brown yet? The rear does not have any brake duct cooling, unless you did that. The 997 Turbo ducts will work for your rear and are clip on's. I have GT2 rear ducts that are banded to the Tarett Cup LCA's. Seem to work fine on my steel rear rotors.
I saw your posts about the LN scavenge pump not being available anymore... what's the reason for that?

I've been using the Mobil 1 0w40 "European Car Formula" in my daily driver, but I don't think that's the oil you're talking about, right? That stuff seems to be available in all the auto part stores. Not sure what you mean by M label.

My brake calipers look brand new. Same bright yellow cover as when I got there car. I've never had a problem with the carbon ceramic brakes. That said, I've only done two track weekends and I've been more concerned with technique improvement rather than lap times. Pushing the car hard but definitely room to brake later. I'll check those 997 Turbo rear ducts.

Thanks for all the helpful information. Much appreciated
 

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Zach L- Your yellow brake calipers most likely will still be yellow until you change your discs to steel. But to help with air flow, take a look at the front that mgarcia048 did to his track car.

Sams club has Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 available today for $38.78 for 6 qts- Yes the European Car Formula is available, but that is not the product RAT/540 is calling out, its the FS version that you want.

TTP of Germany currently is offering an Oil Safe Kit -





My posts on the LN dual tandem oil scavenge pump was simply research from past post on this web site going back to 2011 when Porsche actually made this pump. I got excited as it just may have been the unique fix to our engine's oil starvation needs. Unfortunately, Charles Navarro said he does not carry the product any longer. I will post his message to Colin Cantrell here.
On Feb 17, 2019, at 11:25 AM, Colin Cantrell <[email protected]> wrote:

Here’s the response from Charles Navarro from LN

"Unfortunately, the only pump we still have is for the head that has the vac pump for the brake booster and fitting it will be too much trouble. The one that would fit the other head doesn’t exist any more and I have no plans to make them again.


The two quart deep sump is the proper solution paired with a race oil.


We will be pulling these pumps from our offerings as they are now discontinued".

-Colin








 

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Also have an LN power steering cooler kit ready to install. No issues with the PS system, just thinking preventative.
I haven't heard any mention of PS issues. The one thing I think people do for this is install aftermarket underdrive pulleys to reduce RPMs to the PS pump and AC condensor.
 

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Lesmurray- I ran out of options for engine protection so, I am going to be careful with shift points especially where g forces could play a role in starvation. Not sure about AIM data tracker giving real time G force tracking that is easy to see during HPDE action, but that might give me sense of how far to push the G forces on the track. In autocross, not a problem, even with A-7's. So that is where I am going to push the envelope this year. The Recaro racing seats, 6 point harness and roll bar will have to wait another year as its pointless to send the money on stuff here I know I will not be going above 8/10 of the car's potential. I have been slammed by both my installer and LN, which is not surprising as they have bigger fish to fry than supporting my 12 year old car.
 

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Kevin,
Is there a actual difference internally between the 996 Motorsports AOS and the 987.1 Motorsports AOS. The 987.1 has a cutout to fit the airpump bracket, do they work the same. Vacuum pressue the same, filtration of oil droplets and oil from the sump the same etc? If a shop changes the air pump bracket so the 996 model would fit the Cayman 987.1 M-97 motor, on the track would they both work the same?
Thanks,
Ken
 
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