Planet-9 Porsche Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As I'm completely new to doing track days, I've been cautious about what I post with regards to video. I've got a bunch of dashcam stuff. Is there some etiquette I should be aware of when it comes to posting it? DE is perfectly legal but I understand some people might not want their insurance companies or even Porsche to know about it in case it has any effect on insurance or warranty coverage.

So what's the norm? Is it frowned upon? Is it perfectly fine?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
534 Posts
A buddy of mine claims that insurance companies have been known to drop people from coverage if they find out they have been tracking their car. That seems extreme to me and I have never heard of this personally happening. Even if you do post the video online, they would be challenged to tie your identity back to the forum handle that posted the video. I personally would not worry about this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
751 Posts
There's a significant difference between being at the track racing and doing a driver's education event. The latter should not be an issue (IANAL). Personally, I'd just post the videos :taunt:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
This is kind of what I thought. It's DE. They're extremely strict about timing devices and I think this is why.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
A buddy of mine claims that insurance companies have been known to drop people from coverage if they find out they have been tracking their car. That seems extreme to me and I have never heard of this personally happening. Even if you do post the video online, they would be challenged to tie your identity back to the forum handle that posted the video. I personally would not worry about this.
If you're doing DEs, there is an excellent chance your insurance company won't cover any damage to your car or an OP's car anyway so it should be no skin off their nose what you are doing. Even if your policy doesn't mention track days as an exclusion, it doesn't prevent them from excluding damage after the fact based on how they interpret their own policy language.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
If you're doing DEs, there is an excellent chance your insurance company won't cover any damage to your car or an OP's car anyway so it should be no skin off their nose what you are doing. Even if your policy doesn't mention track days as an exclusion, it doesn't prevent them from excluding damage after the fact based on how they interpret their own policy language.
Yeah... if it ever came down to that, I imagine I'd have to find a good lawyer to help figure the whole thing out. Luckily, I've got a pretty good idea where to look for one. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
785 Posts
Both PCA and SCCA make it a point to strongly tell you NOT to publish DE video for various reasons.
Once you Post ANYTHING on-line, it is out of your control forever, even if you copywrite the video.
I don't use any video but don't want any of myself Posted.-Richard
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dracarys

·
PCA / POC Member & Club Donor
Joined
·
1,932 Posts
The potential fraud being perpetrated by others should not be your concern. Post away.

Now, it is bad form to post crash footage or images of damage.

Cheers,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
The potential fraud being perpetrated by others should be your concern. Post away.

Now, it is bad form to post crash footage or images of damage.

Cheers,
Fraud?? How so?

And yeah... I definitely wouldn't post any crashed, if any such things occurred. Thankfully, I have nothing to show in that respect. :)
 

·
PCA / POC Member & Club Donor
Joined
·
1,932 Posts
Fraud?? How so?

And yeah... I definitely wouldn't post any crashed, if any such things occurred. Thankfully, I have nothing to show in that respect. :)
If people are trying to deceive their insurance companies, or Porsche, it is fraud. It is not your responsibility to protect them by not posting video. Some of the crap I have seen people pull is disgusting.

If you want coverage on the track, buy it. If not, then we should all consider ourselves self insured. The insurance company, and Porsche, did not sell you coverage - insurance or warranty - with the expectation that you would use your car on track.

Cheers,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
It's probably discussion for an entirely different thread... but there's argument to be made that they did in these cases. Nobody will argue that you're not covered for racing. That's all pretty clearly defined.

Technically though, DE is basically driving school. You're not competing with anyone. Not even yourself. There's no timing, so you're not trying to beat some personal record or anything. You're just being taught how to drive better.

So whether that happens on a racetrack or in a parking lot or on the public roads seems rather irrelevant.

For Porsche to suggest that something isn't covered under warranty because you've driven the car as it was intended for seems ludicrous.

For insurance to deny a claim because something happened while you were learning to be a better driver is also ridiculous.

Now... I know they'll try and often succeed. I'm just giving the justification for why they shouldn't.

Now... when it comes to fraud... yeah... when you start modifying things and then they break and you pretend it's not your fault... that's fraud. I've seen plenty of people try to make claims on stuff they had no right to. That's not what this is about though.... unless the video shows suspension settings way out of anything possible without modifying or any other mods that the owner then claims not to have had. And I agree... I'm not really interested one way or the other in worrying about that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
What Krokodil said...
 

·
Cayman The Destroyer!
Joined
·
2,631 Posts
It's probably discussion for an entirely different thread... but there's argument to be made that they did in these cases. Nobody will argue that you're not covered for racing. That's all pretty clearly defined.

Technically though, DE is basically driving school. You're not competing with anyone. Not even yourself. There's no timing, so you're not trying to beat some personal record or anything. You're just being taught how to drive better.

So whether that happens on a racetrack or in a parking lot or on the public roads seems rather irrelevant.

For Porsche to suggest that something isn't covered under warranty because you've driven the car as it was intended for seems ludicrous.

For insurance to deny a claim because something happened while you were learning to be a better driver is also ridiculous.

Now... I know they'll try and often succeed. I'm just giving the justification for why they shouldn't.

Now... when it comes to fraud... yeah... when you start modifying things and then they break and you pretend it's not your fault... that's fraud. I've seen plenty of people try to make claims on stuff they had no right to. That's not what this is about though.... unless the video shows suspension settings way out of anything possible without modifying or any other mods that the owner then claims not to have had. And I agree... I'm not really interested one way or the other in worrying about that.
Unfortunately you are 100% incorrect. If you drive your Porsche on track at a DE, Porsche may refuse any warranty coverage. Been there and done that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Unfortunately you are 100% incorrect. If you drive your Porsche on track at a DE, Porsche may refuse any warranty coverage. Been there and done that.
Interesting. What's the rationale?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,989 Posts
For Porsche to suggest that something isn't covered under warranty because you've driven the car as it was intended for seems ludicrous.
:confused: PCNA is not suggesting anything. They told you when you bought the car.

Warranty

"This Warranty Does Not Cover:

track use, or other events. ... Components and/or parts that fail during ... driving events (including Porsche sponsored events) may not be covered by the new car Limited Warranty."


Don't you think its ludicrous to argue with something you were told in black & white when you bought the car?

Track use or other events seems pretty clear to me. It says nothing about timing. Timing is the OLD words used a decade ago in insurance policies. Those words are no longer used as they were a loophole that has been plugged. Remember, HPDE is a relatively new thing. 20 years ago they were no where as near popular as today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,713 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Interesting, and good to know!

Now... is this similar to modifications in that they need to show that the track driving was the cause of the failure?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,989 Posts
is this similar to modifications in that they need to show that the track driving was the cause of the failure?
MM, the law you are referring to, does not apply to you. That is a USA law. You will need to look up and see if Canada has a similar law. A quick Google search and I cannot find anything equivalent.
P-car forums are littered with threads on warranties denied and warranties authorized for both track use and modifications. You can look them up yourself. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't.

I'm going to guess they can do just about whatever they want if you want fight them and say "no sir, that part didn't fail because I did a track day", good luck with that. Maybe you win, maybe you lose. But I'll guess they have more corporate lawyers than you do :)


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,850 Posts
Interesting, and good to know!

Now... is this similar to modifications in that they need to show that the track driving was the cause of the failure?


I suppose that you are alluding to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act which requires that warranty contracts must fully, clearly, and conspicuously disclose their terms and conditions in simple and readily understood language. Chow4us specified the exclusion that is in the Warranty booklet that all new owners are given, but few actually read. I know that it may seem counter intuitive, but track use may be interpreted as "abuse." Therefore, any product failures that occur while the car is engaged in track use may be excluded from warranty coverage. So all that Porsche has to prove is that the car was tracked.
As far as mods are concerned, all Porsche has to do is to produce an expert witness who will likely be an Automotive Porsche Engineer with numerous certifications, who will testify that in his "expert" opinion the mods were the cause of the part failure.
These are US requirements. I would imagine that there are similar regulations for countries outside the US.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
13,989 Posts
I suppose that you are alluding to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act which requires that warranty contracts must fully, clearly, and conspicuously disclose their terms and conditions in simple and readily understood language. Chow4us specified the exclusion that is in the Warranty booklet that all new owners are given, but few actually read. I know that it may seem counter intuitive, but track use may be interpreted as "abuse." Therefore, any product failures that occur while the car is engaged in track use may be excluded from warranty coverage. So all that Porsche has to prove is that the car was tracked.
As far as mods are concerned, all Porsche has to do is to produce an expert witness who will likely be an Automotive Porsche Engineer with numerous certifications, who will testify that in his "expert" opinion the mods were the cause of the part failure.
These are US requirements. I would imagine that there are similar regulations for countries outside the US.
Actually, "abuse" is there too. I just didn't quote abuse because it specifically excluded tracks. Further, these cars are normal production cars. They are NOT intended for track use in any way. People can try to rationalize this but its likely to fail. Want a track car, buy a track car. No excuse now for box/cay owners. Get a GT4 (or GT3 or GT2). I am sure there are many people here who tried to use their 987 Cayman like a GT3 and found out the hard way the oil starvation issues. :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
Get a GT4 (or GT3 or GT2). I am sure there are many people here who tried to use their 987 Cayman like a GT3 and found out the hard way the oil starvation issues. :(
Are GT4 warranted for track use?
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top