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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let me start by saying that I am a terrible negotiator in the car market... or least have been.

I have a well optioned Cayman GTS on order to be delivered (hopefully early) next year and this will replace a nice 987 2.7 Cayman -- my first Porsche.

So, what is the experience out there on the question of trade in vs sell as a private sale.
For me the question breaks down into:
1) What sort of experience have folks had "selling" their 987.1 era Caymans as they "trade up" ? vs
2) What sort of experience have folks had in "trading" their ride into the dealer they are buying the new car from?

As I look at the KBB site and look at the dollar differences, from one point of view, both options are in the same ball park.
And I'm not opposed to "trading" overall transaction convenience for a few grand if I think the dealer is being reasonable -- what ever that means, and I think the dealer is communicating reasonableness. But we haven't done that part of the deal yet!

So, if folks are not shy in commenting, which way did you go and how do you rate the experience.
Thanks..
D
 

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It's all about convenience vs. money.

Dealer supposedly gives you less but all you have to do is sign one paper. And on some cars and in some situations, with good negotiating skills you can get pretty close.

For example, when I was looking for a new car for my wife, I negotiated the price of a new car first. Than I told the dealer that I want to trade in her old car (Infinity FX) dealer looked at it, told me it's regrettably in bad shape and offered me $11K vs mysterious $13-14K in KBB. The car was showing it's age a little (like rusted out exhaust), but was in no way in bad shape and meticulously maintained and detailed. So I told the dealer that it's part of the deal, and in a few days - I was in no hurry at all - $11K became $13K. I don't think I could've sold it better myself.

And that's the way I go. I usually trade-in my older cars and I negotiate hard about trade-in value - as part of the deal for a new car.

So if dealer offers you a reasonable money withing few grands of KBB, and you don't care much - trade in. If you didn't signed the papers for new GTS - dealer would be much more willing to give you a better price. But it's still not to late to negotiate a little.
 
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My experience is that KBB provides an inflated view of what cars are worth. So don't be disappointed if the dealer doesn't match why KBB specifies. I live in Maryland and CarMax has always give me the most for my car. So I always start with CarMax to get a good idea of what the wholesale value is for my car. I then visit the dealer and have them appraise my car and they generally offer about 5% below CarMax. I then make my offer for $X over invoice for the new car, provided that they are willing to match the CarMax price for my trade-in. In Maryland you don't pay sales tax on the price that the dealer pays for your trade-in. So if the negotiated price for the new car is $70K and you get $30K for the trade-in, you only pay taxes on $40K and not the entire $70K. In Maryland that would be $1800 less in sales tax. If dealer A refuses my offer, I then move on to dealer B. There are four Porsche dealers within an hour of where I live. Competition is good.:)
 

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Let me start by saying that I am a terrible negotiator in the car market... or least have been.

I have a well optioned Cayman GTS on order to be delivered (hopefully early) next year and this will replace a nice 987 2.7 Cayman -- my first Porsche.

So, what is the experience out there on the question of trade in vs sell as a private sale.
For me the question breaks down into:
1) What sort of experience have folks had "selling" their 987.1 era Caymans as they "trade up" ? vs
2) What sort of experience have folks had in "trading" their ride into the dealer they are buying the new car from?

As I look at the KBB site and look at the dollar differences, from one point of view, both options are in the same ball park.
And I'm not opposed to "trading" overall transaction convenience for a few grand if I think the dealer is being reasonable -- what ever that means, and I think the dealer is communicating reasonableness. But we haven't done that part of the deal yet!

So, if folks are not shy in commenting, which way did you go and how do you rate the experience.
Thanks..
D
Having sold a few cars I have some experience.

1. Price your car well and it will sell. I priced my 987.1 accordingly based on a combination of market research, blue book guides etc and it sold for 200 less than asking
2. Don't let your car sit because you priced it to high
3. Its a lot of work, be prepared for that.
4. If you are willing to do the work you will get a lot more. eg. Dealer offered 23k, I sold it for 32k. Book showed retail of 32K at the time and wholesale of 27.
5. Dealers will always offer around 2-3 k less than what any book says
6. No experience trading, I don't like to give money away... Lol
 

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I got a decent discount on my lightly optioned GTS (5 - 6%) and the dealer is happy to take my 987.1, for about what KKB said would be dealer trade in price. I just didn't want to have to worry about giving test drives, PPI's etc. Not worth the time , hassle and risk. I was envisioning a bunch of young males showing up at my house wanting to test drive a "Porsh". Also, it makes it easy at DMV to pay reduced sales tax, since the trade in price is subtracted from new car price. Though I find out tomorrow if the out of state dealer will really take the car for what they offering; since I have no local dealer, they haven't seen the car in person (nor have I seen or driven a 981!).
 

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The age old dilemma. You'll need to determine a cpl of things before making up your mind:

~ does CA only charge sales tax on the difference if you trade or on the full amt? If they only charge on the difference, you'll need to do some math (more later).
~ can you afford to borrow the full amt on the GTS (and possibly make 2 payments) until you get your 987 sold?
~ are you willing to go thru the hassle of selling yourself? Some find the process distasteful.

Now for the math... I don't know if you have an 07 or 08, I don't know miles, options, etc. So I'm going to use base numbers for an 07 from NADA. Those numbers are:

Ave trade $15.8
Clean trade $17.5
Retail $20.8

Ave trade is probably what you'll get from the dealer. Retail is what they'll ask but you won't be able to get that since you don't have the advantages of a dealer (financing, taking trades, etc). So in order to get someone to buy your car, you need to price it more competitively. I buy and sell cars as a hobby and I've found the sweet spot where I can max my profit yet get customers to buy is 1/2 way between Clean Trade & Retail. Others like different prices guides, but I use NADA and my pricing strategy generally is pretty close to what I can sell a car for.

More math... If CA charges sales tax on the difference, you need to figure out if it's worth the work of selling your car or trading it in. In my example take 15.8 X 1.xx where xx is your sales tax rate. The resulting value will be the amt you must sell your car for to break even. Chances are you will make a bit more by selling yourself (approx for $19K in my example) than trading in, unless you have a large sales tax. If the values are close, you may not want to hassle for the extra money.

Base 987 Caymans are REALLY dropping in price lately. And Tiptronics make the value even less. I'm not disparaging your car, just letting you know what's going on in the mkt. But that can be to your advantage - if you have a realistic price, a $19K vehicle has a larger potential buying pool than a $40K car does, esp when you're not going to take trades. Selling a car can be a pain in the a$$ - you need to keep it clean because you never know when someone will want to look, you have to be available, and most importantly, you have to be careful. But selling a car yourself can be very satisfying and fun. It just takes some effort.

When you go in to the dealer to talk turkey, I would recommend starting off as if you're not trading. Get your best price on the GTS, then come in with the trade. Then you'll know what they're actually giving you (sometimes they say they're giving you way more for your trade but actually they didn't discount the new car). Or if they must talk trade right away, go into the deal having done your homework knowing what they'll want minus the ave trade price. Then focus on the difference and make sure it's close to what you est going in.

And what have my experiences been selling 987s? I sold my 07 CS two yrs ago. It took me 3 mo to sell. I just sold an 06 CS on consignement for a friend in 5 hrs. Think I'll write up a new thread on that experience.

Here's a handy site for helping determine prices.
Rideslist.com - car classifieds (sfbay)
 

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CarMax gave me $1,500 more cash for my Cayman S than the Porsche dealer would give me trade in on a new Boxster GTS. Took CarMax offer to Porsche dealer who would not match it.

CarMax offered $2,000 more cash for my Toyota 4Runner than the Toyota dealer would give me trade in on a new 2015 4Runner. Took CarMax offer to Toyota dealer who would not match it. Lexus dealer gave me $3,000 more cash than Toyota offered trade it.

In OK you pay sales tax on the full amount, so YMMV, but using CarMax saved me a total of $4,500 buying two new vehicles in the last 3 months. Selling to CarMax for cash is too easy and having cash is additional negotiating power.
 

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CarMax gave me $1,500 more cash for my Cayman S than the Porsche dealer would give me trade in on a new Boxster GTS. Took CarMax offer to Porsche dealer who would not match it.

I've purchased my last two Porsches from the same dealership. Obviously timing and homework are critical. I will never do my negotiation in person. I make offers by email. Typically I make an aggressive but reasonable offer, and they will make a counter which is usually about $1 - 2K above my offer. I politely respond that I will consider their offer, but before accepting I will make my same offer to two other dealers to ascertain their interest. For my last two Porsche purchases I received a follow up email accepting my initial offer. There are two major advantages that I had: 1. my offer although aggressive was reasonable; and 2. they know that I'm a serious buyer and not simply on a fishing expedition.

Home work is key. Getting a substantial discount on a 981 or even 991 is one thing, but getting even a nominal discount on a very low production car like a 991 Turbo S would be unrealistic, unless the car has been languishing on the dealer's showroom for quite some time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Great input. The last time I sold a car on the private market, it was an Acura Integra and that experience was pretty easy -- but the price point was a lot different than what ever I'd be looking at for my '07 base Cayman.

Thanks for the reality check on the market for base Cayman's. The good news is that the whole top to bottom of estimates is not that large and the mid point of the range is not that high in any case.
But the best input you all have offered is the CarMax option.

I'm not sure about the Calif sales tax implications.. but as I understand it, the buyer pays the CA tax.

I'll check out Rideslist.com also.
D
 

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but as I understand it, the buyer pays the CA tax.
Oh you'll have to pay the tax, it's just a question of how much. Some states only make you pay the difference if you trade in a car, some states don't care if you trade in or not, they'll charge you the sales tax on the full amt of the GTS.

And I need to add to my earlier post - if CA charges the full amt regardless if there was a trade, you'll be better off selling your car because you can probably get more $$$ than the trade in value they're offering.

I've only tried CarMax once in having them purchase a car from me. I had a very nice '10 Audi TT conv and they totally low balled me. Their offer wasn't even close to Rough Trade In value. I guess they're worth a shot and others seem to have had success, but know your numbers before going in. No sense just giving your car away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Sorry Husker,,,, I misunderstood. I understand that I pay sales tax on the GTS... and probably thei trade-in does not justs the GTS "sales price" --- the Gov'ner always gets his full share! heeheehee.

I took a look at Rideslist.com.... they have many (all intact) of the cars in the area that were listed in other sites, incl cars.com, Craig's List.
Looks like there are a few '07 base cars for sale, but the prices listed are either generally over KBB or way over milage adjusted KBB. Maybe everyone thinks their car is in pristine condition -- but my guess is that to get the top-top $$, the ride better be concours condition and low milage, like less less than 30K miles (for a 7 year old car).

I'm not greedy here, so, we'll see where it ends up.
D
 

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I'm fairly certain that in California the buyer pays the full sales tax of the new vehicle - there is no reduction or allowance based on subtracting the value of the trade-in.

My SA suggested I try CarMax, and ultimately they gave me a great offer and it was quick and easy. But my trade-in was a Nissan, and there is a certain expectation that if you are trading in a car of the same make as the one you are buying, then that dealer should give you a good price. So I would get a quote from CarMax (it's good for 7 days) and then get the Porsche dealer to give you their best offer.
 

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I take the question from a different perspective. If you have an extremely well maintained car, no reason to allow it to join the ranks of the used car lot. Instead, offer it here and on PCA.com at a reasonable price and make someone's day. Reasonable is between wholesale (real trade $) and retail $. It will sell relatively quickly.

If the car has not been treated so well, then trade it and allow the dealer to earn a profit after they fluff and buff it and out her back into road ready condition.

Good luck. Matt
 

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As a follow up to my earlier post in this thread, yesterday I traded in my 06 CS for a new C-GTS. Very smooth, no hassles. The dealer hardy looked at my old car before signing the papers for the new one. I had warned them about very low tread on rear tires, inch crack and pit in windshield (both sealed), these weren't an issue for them. I removed the rubber floor mats from the 987, and since they were ok with it, my black rear cargo net since that is no longer included on the new Cayman (thought of that thanks to a Planet-9 post, thanks!). Overall the convenience was well worth it to me, I would not want to take the time and effort to maybe (or maybe) not wring out an extra G or 2 from a private sale.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
There are some good ideas and stories here. In a sense, I'd probably be happy with the same experience as BlueNorther, but I'm prepared to go private sale. Good idea about going to PCA, or Excellence -- or other Porsche Centric Site as opposed to a general automotive site.

BlueNorther.. did you do the transaction and take position of your new C-GTS at the same sitting??
Don
 

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...

BlueNorther.. did you do the transaction and take position of your new C-GTS at the same sitting??
Don
Yes, that is why it was so convenient. I had never visited this dealership before (it is nearly 200 miles away) and they had never seen my car before the time of exchange. All handled up till then by email with photos and my good faith description of the 06.
 
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