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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was looking at the results for the 2009 nationals, and the Boxsters and Caymans post dismal results. Classes aside, the times are just not that good.

Why do these cars not perform well in that venue? Are they tuned more for higher speed? Is mid or rear engine just not effective? The consensus seems to be that these cars are fantastic on a track. What makes them sub-optimal for smaller autocross courses?

Or do Boxster/Cayman folks just skip nationals because the class system puts them at a disadvantage?
 

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Huh? Must be the drivers.
I often get faster times than many other Porsches including Turbos, GT3s and GT2s and RS versions. Not always, but often.
 

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It is primarily that these cars are classed too high in which they cannot be competitive, which leads people not to develop the car to be competitive. Even in stock class, there is a lot of development time involved and once you move to the SP classes, the development time is significant, like 2-3 seasons. I don't think want to send that much time and money to be competitive; there are much cheaper cars that have been developed to achieve the objective of winning.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
As an example, a large number of S2000s handily beat the best Boxster time. The S2000 has crumby 0-60 times, and the engine is in the wrong place. So how the heck do they end up so much more competitive? Do they have front camber adjustments stock or something that the Boxster doesn't? They don't seem to keep up on any road course.

A friend of mine said that it helps to have a car that's a bit loose so you can swing the rear around. Is that the issue?
 

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The mid 70 MPH second gear hurts it for autocross.

Anyone know if the early Boxster 5 speed gearbox will bolt up to an 09+ DFI motor?
If so B-Street Prepared would be very interesting.
Although the turbo 4 X 4 rally cars (Evo, STI) are very strong in BSP.

With the stock class re-org I've heard of a "name" driver or two talking
about trying one in A Stock (06-08 Cayman S) or B Stock (05-08 Cayman).

The 09+ and the Boxster Spyder are still in Super Stock against the GT3, Elise, and ZO6.
 

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As an example, a large number of S2000s handily beat the best Boxster time. The S2000 has crumby 0-60 times, and the engine is in the wrong place. So how the heck do they end up so much more competitive? Do they have front camber adjustments stock or something that the Boxster doesn't? They don't seem to keep up on any road course.

A friend of mine said that it helps to have a car that's a bit loose so you can swing the rear around. Is that the issue?
I too have seen S2000's do very well at AutoX and beating all the Porsches at a local PCA AutoX last season. :eek: Granted the S2000 pilots were very good drivers...
 

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The mid 70 MPH second gear hurts it for autocross.

Anyone know if the early Boxster 5 speed gearbox will bolt up to an 09+ DFI motor?
If so B-Street Prepared would be very interesting.
Although the turbo 4 X 4 rally cars (Evo, STI) are very strong in BSP.

With the stock class re-org I've heard of a "name" driver or two talking
about trying one in A Stock (06-08 Cayman S) or B Stock (05-08 Cayman).

The 09+ and the Boxster Spyder are still in Super Stock against the GT3, Elise, and ZO6.
Actually all of the CS's are in SS and the non-S's are AS (http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/2009_Stock_Category_Classifications_By_Manufacturer.pdf) . But it's just for fun when I go to AX's, I think it's silly to spend a ton of money to go fast in a parking lot when Road Atlanta and VIR are each 4 hours away :banana:
 

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I would say its all about the drivers. The cars themselves can achieve good results. But of course, I dunno how the categories work on your side of the pond!
 

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Why aren't Caymans/Boxster competitive in AutoX?
Because our cars were designed to race around the sweeping corners of the Nurburgring at 200 km/h, not around some stupid pylons in a parking lot in 1st gear.

Auto X courses are so tight and slow that they favour go-karts not fine german sports cars. The kind of cars that do amazing at Auto-X are clapped out old Honda CRXs, not the type of car you'd want to drive through a mountain pass.

In the same way Cayman/Boxsters suck on the drag strip I think it's a good thing they suck at Auto-X.

Auto-X --> Honda CRX
Nurburgring --> Porsche Cayman/Boxster
 

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Check the 2010 rules. I did.
SCCA - Sports Car Club of America

Super Stock
Boxster S (2009-10)
Boxster Spyder (2011)
Cayman S (2009-10)

A Stock
Boxster S (2005-08)
Cayman S (2006-08)

B Stock
Boxster (non-S) (2005-08)
Boxster S (986 chassis) (2000-04)
Cayman (non-S) (2005-08)

C Stock
Boxster (986 chassis, non-S) (1997-2004)
 

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I went from an S2000 to my Cayman S -- don't underestimate that Honda! :)

Basically I think it's 2 things:

  1. The Boxster/Cayman is geared and balanced more for track driving than tight autocross driving. Cars like the Miata and S2000 love this kind of driving (I could touch third gear even on a pretty small autocross course), but run out of steam at higher speeds.
  2. Autocross racing is more the "accessible" type, with much less money spent on the cars than some forms of racing. An S2000 can be had and modified for very little money, so it's more likely you'll have a "highly-tuned" S2000 out there.

That said, I'm looking forward to testing those assumptions soon. I went to a couple of PCA events in my S2000 and beat a lot of Boxsters, and I plan to go to some S2000 events in my Cayman S and see if I can return the favor. We'll see if it's car or driver ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Because our cars were designed to race around the sweeping corners of the Nurburgring at 200 km/h, not around some stupid pylons in a parking lot in 1st gear.

Auto X courses are so tight and slow that they favour go-karts not fine german sports cars. The kind of cars that do amazing at Auto-X are clapped out old Honda CRXs, not the type of car you'd want to drive through a mountain pass.

In the same way Cayman/Boxsters suck on the drag strip I think it's a good thing they suck at Auto-X.

Auto-X --> Honda CRX
Nurburgring --> Porsche Cayman/Boxster
Well, that would be my argument, but I'm not sure it's right. I'm sure it's a factor in non-stock classes. But a stock S2000 has a top speed in excess of 160mph, so the handling has to be OK beyond parking lot speeds.

I get why an Elise is going to do great... it's a tiny car. But the stock S2000 thing still perplexes me. It's about the same size, with less power. Do they have better damping or geometry or something?

I can definitely appreciate that the Boxster gearing may not be optimal. If you can't hit 55mph, you're not at the sweet spot in the curve. And 30 to 35mph in second gear really sucks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I went from an S2000 to my Cayman S -- don't underestimate that Honda! :)

Basically I think it's 2 things:

  1. The Boxster/Cayman is geared and balanced more for track driving than tight autocross driving. Cars like the Miata and S2000 love this kind of driving (I could touch third gear even on a pretty small autocross course), but run out of steam at higher speeds.
  2. Autocross racing is more the "accessible" type, with much less money spent on the cars than some forms of racing. An S2000 can be had and modified for very little money, so it's more likely you'll have a "highly-tuned" S2000 out there.

That said, I'm looking forward to testing those assumptions soon. I went to a couple of PCA events in my S2000 and beat a lot of Boxsters, and I plan to go to some S2000 events in my Cayman S and see if I can return the favor. We'll see if it's car or driver ;)
I guess I can see how the less expensive cars would easily outnumber the P-cars at these types of events.

I'm curious to hear how you do in your CS!
 

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It depends on your philosophy for AX. Are you going out to compete or have fun? If you are competing are you competing against everyone else and every other car or yourself? I AX with my Boxster to, first of all, have fun, second learn how my car handles as a stock Boxster so I can transfer that knowledge over to street and highway driving situations I might encounter, and third to beat my own times by the last run of the day. I've surprised myself in beating the times of other Porsche models that I thought were better handling cars than mine but when someone pulls up with a car on a trailer, that sits 2" off the ground, and is obviously built for AX I don't even bother to entertain that my car will out perform theirs on the course. A big part of AX for me is the relationships you develop with other drivers, seeing other Porsche models, working the event and seeing how other drivers approach the course. For me it's the total experience that makes AX fun.:cheers:
 

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The new classifications should render the '05 to '08 Boxster S and Cayman S more competitive in SCCA stock classes. SCCA not only moved them down from SS to AS, they moved the hot AS cars (including the S2000) down to BS (where the S2000 will probably continue to beat the base Porsche versions). It's probably too early to know whether the newer Boxster S and Cayman S will be competitive in SS.
 

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Interesting. Do stock S2000s have an available limited slip differential? If so, I can see the Boxster/Cayman losing some time there, as we really don't have good traction in the lower gears.
I'm also guessing that, as said, due to the lower cost there are a Lot more S2000s and similar cars competing, And I think we'd have to admit that a good percentage of Porsche drivers are just having some fun and not too serious.
Now, if one used the same pro-ish driver, same diff type, and same preparation/development effort on the two - and the CS has a better power/weight ratio and the mid engine - I'd be surprised if the the S2000 were quicker. But then, things don't always make sense.
 

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Yes, all S2000's come with a limited slip diff.

I have an S2000 (modified, but still very easily could be used as a DD) and have yet to be beat by any Porsche that has come to an autox over the past three years. It depends a lot on the driver.
 

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. . . I'm also guessing that, as said, due to the lower cost there are a Lot more S2000s and similar cars competing, And I think we'd have to admit that a good percentage of Porsche drivers are just having some fun and not too serious.
Now, if one used the same pro-ish driver, same diff type, and same preparation/development effort on the two - and the CS has a better power/weight ratio and the mid engine - I'd be surprised if the the S2000 were quicker. But then, things don't always make sense.
I agree with Jeff's points - in the years I was regularly AXing with the SCCA, I rarely saw any Porsches, maybe the occasional prepped 914 or 944, but almost never any late models, which seemed strange to me since we usuallly get a pretty good turn-out of owners at our local PCA AX events.

It has been my observation that the local PCA AX is usually more for fun, while most people who regularly attend SCCA Solo are usually more serious about competing - and may not have the financial wherewithal to afford a newer Porsche.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yes, all S2000's come with a limited slip diff.

I have an S2000 (modified, but still very easily could be used as a DD) and have yet to be beat by any Porsche that has come to an autox over the past three years. It depends a lot on the driver.
LSD. Well, that explains everything.

What a shame that Porsche didn't make LSD an option for these cars until now. I guess if your premier model isn't competitive, you should handicap ALL of your cars :crazy:

I still think my car is fantastic to drive, but I wish it could have been competitive with a $30k Honda in a stock class at an autox event.
 

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Check the 2010 rules. I did.
SCCA - Sports Car Club of America

Super Stock
Boxster S (2009-10)
Boxster Spyder (2011)
Cayman S (2009-10)

A Stock
Boxster S (2005-08)
Cayman S (2006-08)

B Stock
Boxster (non-S) (2005-08)
Boxster S (986 chassis) (2000-04)
Cayman (non-S) (2005-08)

C Stock
Boxster (986 chassis, non-S) (1997-2004)
My mistake, I didn't know they changed the rules. Looks like I'll be more competitive this year, SS is rough.
 
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