Apples to oranges comparison!
My 981B can pull 1.07G laterally and less than 1 G for braking and acceleration while my 991.2 C4S is 1.37 laterally and greater than 1G elsewhere.
So obviously the 991.2 "outhandles" the 981 GTS.
Two different cars, BOTH with excellent road handling, neither better generically, but different models have different performance.-Richard

 

Apples to oranges comparison!

I agree! One is a Porsche, the other one is not, what is a point to compare them? It is a good thing that the best handling car Porsche ever built for the road is a not-Porsche ... otherwise that 911 would have been in serious trouble.

/sarcasm

 

Budirichard the numbers come from a standard figure 8 test (Motortrend always do this with new cars), its not an apples and oranges comparison - thats why they do them - its a direct comparison via a defined figure 8 with each hoop having a set diameter - and btw anyone who has done any track time will have pulled more than 1.3g.

Track or other G measurements define what is known as the friction circle for a given piece of road or track.

Your exclamation marks define your lack of understanding not mine. So for your benefit, max lateral G and average lateral G on a standardised figure 8 test define the handling performance envelope in the same way as a friction circle does for a car round a circuit.

 

Here is the "real story" with the new Base Carrera 991.2. It's faster than a 991.1 GTS.



Instrumented testing with a Base 991.2 Carrera: 0 - 60 in 3.4 secs. Quartermile in 11.9 secs. The entry level new 911 is a beast.

Porsche 911 Reviews - Porsche 911 Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

 

Here is the "real story" with the new Base Carrera 991.2. It's faster than a 991.1 GTS.



Instrumented testing with a Base 991.2 Carrera: 0 - 60 in 3.4 secs. Quartermile in 11.9 secs. The entry level new 911 is a beast.



Porsche 911 Reviews - Porsche 911 Price, Photos, and Specs - Car and Driver

Wow, amazing. I drove both the 991.2 base and S in a controlled track setting and I have to say the cars speed and grip blew me away. Even throwing the cars into corners with very abrupt movements caused no instability, it just felt invincible.

Anyone have an instrumented test of a 991.2 S or 4S?

 

Does anyone else think that Porsche makes each new model just faster enough to get us to buy them?


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Does anyone else think that Porsche makes each new model just faster enough to get us to buy them?

Porsche is an amazing company. Not only do they make it faster but handles like no other cars. The new 911 is nothing short of spectacular even in base model form. On my two days test drive. My brother took it for an entire day and didn't want to give it back. He is probably getting one.

 

I literally drove a 981S X73 and 991.2S back to back on a racetrack a few weeks ago. I found the advantage the new 911 had in terms of lateral grip to be astounding. I suspect the tires on the 981 were in worse shape than the 911s but still it's a different world. The 911 had S-PASM and rear wheel steering.

When the 911 started power oversteer on corner exit it did so extremely gradually and predictably. The 981s were very snappy by comparison.

But faster isn't necessarily more fun and you really do need a racetrack to get anywhere near the 991.2's limit.

 

But faster isn't necessarily more fun and you really do need a racetrack to get anywhere near the 991.2's limit.

I agree, so did a couple of my brother in laws who test drove it, said, "It's way too fast for the street." This car will get you in trouble in no time. Step on it, look down and you are in the 3 digits.

 

Both the cars in question are extremely fast, too fast for the street anyway, so making comparisons as to which one is a better handler is IMHO for bragging rights. Yes it it amusing to read the numbers but even my lowly Boxster S is very fast for public roads. if you talking purely track performance, that is another thing not that I am even qualified to make that assessment. Maybe professional drivers like Randy Pobst.
Cars, especially Porsches, are getting to be very fast. Soon they will be traveling at the speed of sound or even light and all you will have to say is Engage (Captain Picard).

 

I guess if the 981 is built in Osnabruck - its a VW

 

Which I don't have a problem with - it makes my Cayman the third Karmann manufactured car I've owned, starting with a '77 VW Scirocco. Sort of a circle be unbroken thing in my eyes.

 

Handling shouldn't be diluted to skidpad numbers. A Mazda Miata will score far lower skidpad numbers than any number of bloated family cars. But it's an incredible handling car.

Skidpad grip has as much to do with tire type and size as outright handling.

 

The numbers reflect the actuality (suspension, dynamic friction, chassis rigidity, COG, roll centre etc) - thats why friction circles are carefully studied by those that want optimal performance for a given set of conditions.

Its performance versus fun - performance can be fun but pure fun may not deliver performance. The Miata is like the BRZ - both are fun, but both lack performance.

I'm an engineer thus I like numbers and the reality is numbers do describe a cars performance. Importantly, its knowing which ones count that matters most - e.g. 0 to 60 is largely irrelevant - unless you're a rally driver whereas 1/4 mile and trap speeds tell you how effectively a car delivers its power and what the WHP is, at about the point where drag is starting to soak up a lot of HP. And on it goes.......

 

It's not semantics. There're 2 different aspects of handling. One is figures (objective). Can't argue with those. The one you're talking about is FEEL (subjective). And to me, it's also more important than the numbers. And this thread is the perfect example: The 911 has the better numbers, but the Cayman the better feel. Porsche throws the kitchen sink at the 911 while castrating the Cayman/Boxsters to keep it on top, but a pendulum at the back is always going to be a liability in how the car drives. I just don't like how it feels, even on the streets. But it's a matter of personal preference, but the difference is not like day and night, especially if not pushed. A 911 is simply not worth what it costs, and not caring about 'status' or performance beyond what my CGTS provides, it has zero appeal to me.

 

Yeah. I don't buy cars by numbers alone, well maybe $ but otherwise feel and fun factor, personally are the main determinants? I would pick a Miata over a Camaro any day because to me, the Miata is just more fun.
Have to agree with you about Cayman versus 911. In the previous version, there was no reason to pick the base Carrerra over the Cayman S. Even less of a reason to pick the 911 cab over the Boxster S due to the former's unappealing aesthetics. With the latest versions, Porsche has dug a deeper trench to separate the Boxster/Cayman from the 911 so if you want a flat six, you can either buy used or will have to fork over that extra dough for the 911.

 

The new 911s still do nothing for me, even excluding the deal-breaker turbo engines. The retro (black) tail is an eye-sore to me, and the new exhaust location looks like crap too: either do it at the center or the sides, but not in-between. Porsche sometimes insists on being different, but it's not always a good thing. And as far as the 911 having the 'better handling numbers', that might not be the case with all 911s (especially vs Cayman/Boxster GTSs with X73), but it doesn't matter to me. The 911 GT cars have undisputed better numbers, and that's the reference I made. But those models don't appeal to me since they're too track focused, without the creature comforts I like on my sports cars. My buddy's McLaren 650S has full power seats, memory, parking sensors front and back, a very nice stereo, front lift, keyless ignition, proper door handles, etc. Don't understand why Porsche can't offer that at least as options on GT3s. That's the only 911 I probably would consider if I was tracking (I'm not), but only if able to equip it as a nice street car, like my GTS. The RS is a more track-focused car, but still. The McLaren 650S is a better street AND better track car than both GT3 and RSs, and still offers all creature comforts. Ferraris and Lambos also offer them. Most people I know with those cars use them for trips, and miss all or most of those options.

 

Sigh! I wish I could justify a new base Carrera. All the reviews suggest it is a very nice car. But I hardly drive my 13 Boxster S more than 4k a year. I am at 15k miles in my 4th year and I doubt it will get past the 17k mark. Six months of the year it sits in a garage. Commuting duty is relegated to my very comfortable Volvo XC60 due to miserable traffic and/or weather conditions. So, trading in my Boxster and paying an extra 65k for a new Carrera which will probably see even less duty because of the hardtop seems like a dumb move. At least on sunny days, I feel like a long drive on back roads with the top down in the Boxster. And the 911 cab does not appeal to me at all due to the odd hump in the back.

 

OK to add some fuel.

My wife and I went for long test drives in the base and S 991.2 as my wife wants a new "four" seater I'll make some general points first (and I'll say this up front historically I haven't been a great fan of the 911 (except GT3). Both cars were equipped with PDK, sport chrono and PSE

1) On fire up - the flat six noise is there - the angry growl
2) Once moving the sound is definitely muted but nontheless still there - if you want noise you definitely need the sports exhaust
3) I found the dial for sport, I, O and plus settings slightly awkward - but it will be easy to get used to
4) The 20 second performance boost button works very well, very functional and easy to use. Press once to engage, press again to disengage
5) Both cars have PASM as standard - comfort mode feels about the same a sport mode in the GTS. In sport mode the damping is quite tight.
6) The base is quick and the S is very, very quick - easy sub 4s to 100kmh
7) Both cars rev out to the redline - they both clearly make great power to the redline. (If you look at the power curves, at high revs they drop very much like the old 3.8).

OK to handling

The handling is very good on both cars, in fact hard to split the base and S (the S did not have rear wheel steering) - turn in is sharp, direct and accurate. Grip and traction levels are high and feel as high as the GTS although the 991 is now on N1 P Zeros (GTS N0). The feel through compound corners was very, very planted the engine placement in this iteration of the 911 imparts and organic feel through corners of this type. It flows beautifully, you notice the weight, but more in the form of a balanced pen - you use it to advantage.

The NVH in the new 911 is great, this coupled with feeling of heft (in a good way) imparts a strong GT flavour.

I came to the following conclusions (and in some respects they seem obvious)

1) The new 911 is quite a step up from the last model, the flat six has retained a lot of character and the performance increases both in outright punch and handling are significant.
2) The feel is more along the lines of highish performance grand tourer - with excellent dry grip, traction and balance.
3) In contrast the GTS feels light, nimble, agile and sharp relative to the 911s planted feel. They are essentially different solutions to high performance handling - both exceptional.

Now heres the real eye opener - IMHO if you want to buy a 911 as a quick, comfortable GT car - the one to have is the base with PSE, PDK and sport chrono.

 

It is threads like this that make the 991.2 as viable an option as the 981 S to me. Yes, I admit to considering both.

 

Last week current Porsche GT3 Challenge Canada champion Chris Green took me for some hot laps in a 991.2 Carrera S.

All I can say is that it's probably irrelevant which car handles better on paper. I'm clearly incapable of taking advantage of any of it. What he did... I cannot do!

 

All I would want in the new base Carrera are the comfortable 18-way seats, PP to get the auto dimming mirrors, sport exhaust and the GT steering wheel. Less than 100k. Rest to me is fluff.

 

I've said this before but I had extensive testing of a non-PSE 991.2 and a slightly shorter but still relevant drive in one with PSE and inside the car I could _not_ tell the difference. And I have pretty sensitive ears. I suspect there are more pops on decel with the PSE but that's about all I discovered. Good news for people who don't like how the PSE looks now I guess.