A quick question about quick shifting during track events. I've read that to keep my car stable during turns, I should shift while braking using the "heal & toe" method. Basically, the idea is to brake before the turn, downshift, blip the throttle to rev up and prevent wheel slip, and then release the clutch. Then you will be in a lower gear allowing you to accelerate out of the turn. To accomplish this, you need to brake with your right toe, while bridging across with the same foot to the gas pedal for the blip. I've tried this in my CS and can't do it! Even with the brake pressed, the gas pedal is too low and far away to use the same foot on both. Question: Do you have to modify your pedals (placement, height) to be able to do this? Is there a better method of downshifting? Am I just a clumsy nerd who has no business posing as a track driver?
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pmharth
My guess is that your problem is you are trying to do this on the street and not braking hard enough. This works best with threshhold braking (or at least very hard braking), when the pedal as down as far as possible for an extended period of time. I think you would find that it works well on the track. Suggest you try finding an opportunity to try at the bottom of an off-ramp (just make sure nobody is behind you!) and see if it makes a difference. If not, then the pedal can be adjusted/shimmed, etc. Mine is actually RAISED significantly because the brake pedal goes down too far.
Everyone's feet are different so you will have to find what works for you. Depending on the pedal placement of cars, (and trucks!), I've driven I have had to use different variations on the heel/toe method to find what works best for me. But I'm no expert. If you'd like to see how the pros do it I'd recommend purchasing "Grand Prix", a vintage 60's movie about Formula 1 racing, and a must have for anyone who is a little nuts about racing. There are lengthy shots of World Champions such as Phil Hill and others performing heel/toe shifts and I can't think of anyone better to learn from then those old racing giants that had to do it for a living and had never heard of paddle shifters!
There are two ways to do it. Pick the one which suit you.
Heel And Toe Downshifting
I would suggest to practice it with engine off first and when you can do it with your eyes closed, start trying it on the street.
Oh, by the way, I have a small feet so I added Rennline H&T extension. Hope this help.
Heel And Toe Downshifting
I would suggest to practice it with engine off first and when you can do it with your eyes closed, start trying it on the street.
Oh, by the way, I have a small feet so I added Rennline H&T extension. Hope this help.
SKip Barber had a pretty good method for teaching heel/toe shifting. You can learn it pretty quickly.
Place the ball of your right foot on the brake pedal but position is it so that about half your foot is hanging off the fight side of the brake pedal. When you've pushed the brake pedal down almost to its limit, roll your right knee to the right several times quickly and you'll blip the throttle each time. With more experience it gets easier. Try sitting in a parking lot with out moving, brake pedal down and roll your knee.
THis is meant for braking hard, down shifting, clutch out matching rev and pulling hard out of the corner and not upsetting the balance of the car.
In the Skip Barber Racing school you had one day to learn this in an open wheel car that had no synchronizers in its transmission. It went like this: 1. brake and clutch at the same time,2 blip the throttle and down shift to neutral, 3 release clutch and blip throttle, 4 clutch in and downshift to next lower gear, blip throttle and let out the clutch. It got pretty busy in the cockpit of the race car doing all this things and watching he corners and your speeds.
I found this method was easy to learn and when you practice it, it works well
Place the ball of your right foot on the brake pedal but position is it so that about half your foot is hanging off the fight side of the brake pedal. When you've pushed the brake pedal down almost to its limit, roll your right knee to the right several times quickly and you'll blip the throttle each time. With more experience it gets easier. Try sitting in a parking lot with out moving, brake pedal down and roll your knee.
THis is meant for braking hard, down shifting, clutch out matching rev and pulling hard out of the corner and not upsetting the balance of the car.
In the Skip Barber Racing school you had one day to learn this in an open wheel car that had no synchronizers in its transmission. It went like this: 1. brake and clutch at the same time,2 blip the throttle and down shift to neutral, 3 release clutch and blip throttle, 4 clutch in and downshift to next lower gear, blip throttle and let out the clutch. It got pretty busy in the cockpit of the race car doing all this things and watching he corners and your speeds.
I found this method was easy to learn and when you practice it, it works well
I'm struggling with this as well although, the picture helps greatly and I understand that practice makes perfect. Even more frustrating is that I don't feel the blip is responsive enough on my Cayman S. I have the usual mods - desnork, EVO intake, after market exhaust (speedART) and ECU retune (EVOMS/GIAC). I'm considering the "Porsche race plenum coupled with a 80mm race throttle body and map" in hopes that I see some more response, among other things...
The response of the throttle should be MORE than quick enough if you are being fast enough with the blip. Try being more brutal with the blip. A quicker roll with the outside of the foot. At first you will over-rev the blip, but then it should be quick to hone in on the correct level of accelerator actuation.
I can do it with sport chrono on or off just as efficiently, just a different degree of movement required. Speed of change is not affected at all.
I can do it with sport chrono on or off just as efficiently, just a different degree of movement required. Speed of change is not affected at all.
According to Alan Johnson, "heel-and-toe" isn't an accurate description of what's actually done. The terminology surfaced many years ago when many race cars had the gas pedal below the brake, or between the brake and the clutch, and the heel actually depressed the gas while the toe depressed the brake. If you're older than Carroll Shelby, you may have driven a car like that; in which case, you'll remember having to double-clutch too.
In modern cars, heel-and-toe usually takes the form of left side of right foot on the brake, and roll the right side of the foot onto the gas pedal with the brake depressed. The heel is rarely used for anything other than a pivot point. If the gas and brake pedals seem too far apart, an aftermarket gas pedal that extends toward the brake pedal may help.
In modern cars, heel-and-toe usually takes the form of left side of right foot on the brake, and roll the right side of the foot onto the gas pedal with the brake depressed. The heel is rarely used for anything other than a pivot point. If the gas and brake pedals seem too far apart, an aftermarket gas pedal that extends toward the brake pedal may help.
There are numerous good threads here about heal and toe shifting including some instructional videos that members posted. You'll dig up some good stuff in a search.
Sport chrono will make the throttle blip faster. I find it easier without it, but I've learned to do it just the same. Also keep in mind that a good pair of shoes makes all the difference in the world. I use some Piloti's and love them. The outside where I push down on the accelerator is reinforced which makes it easier.
The comment about threshold breaking is right on. You are really nailing the brake pedal down when you do it. Go to an empty parking lot and practice between 3rd and 2nd, or 4th and 3rd. I find it hard to go from 2nd to 1st. I think you'll also find it hard to do 4th to 3rd in a parking lot.
Sport chrono will make the throttle blip faster. I find it easier without it, but I've learned to do it just the same. Also keep in mind that a good pair of shoes makes all the difference in the world. I use some Piloti's and love them. The outside where I push down on the accelerator is reinforced which makes it easier.
The comment about threshold breaking is right on. You are really nailing the brake pedal down when you do it. Go to an empty parking lot and practice between 3rd and 2nd, or 4th and 3rd. I find it hard to go from 2nd to 1st. I think you'll also find it hard to do 4th to 3rd in a parking lot.
Two other comments.
First, try moving your right foot higher on the brake pedal to it hits closer to your arch. This moves you heal to a spot where the accelerator may be easier to reach for the "blip"
Second, and this a BIG one for you inexperienced H&Ter's -- TIMING -- The blip comes at the end of your braking zone, just prior to turn-in, after you've completed most of your deceleration but before you turn the wheel. This reduces the likelihood of a down-shift over-rev and from a missed shift causing a spin in the turn.
Greg
First, try moving your right foot higher on the brake pedal to it hits closer to your arch. This moves you heal to a spot where the accelerator may be easier to reach for the "blip"
Second, and this a BIG one for you inexperienced H&Ter's -- TIMING -- The blip comes at the end of your braking zone, just prior to turn-in, after you've completed most of your deceleration but before you turn the wheel. This reduces the likelihood of a down-shift over-rev and from a missed shift causing a spin in the turn.
Greg
There are a few videos on Youtube that show the timing of heel-toe shifting, though not with Porsches.
Heel-toe with an Elise: YouTube - Heel-toe shifting technique
Close up on the feet: YouTube - THE way to do heel/toe shifting (in a Radical SR3)
Another view of the feet: YouTube - Downshifting and heel and toe shifting
Heel-toe with an Elise: YouTube - Heel-toe shifting technique
Close up on the feet: YouTube - THE way to do heel/toe shifting (in a Radical SR3)
Another view of the feet: YouTube - Downshifting and heel and toe shifting
IMO this heel & toe stuff is a waste of time. I've been doing this for 15 years and have been an instructor for 8 years and do very well without it. I down shift under braking and use the down shift to additionally slow the car. Matching revs with heel & toe make you brake harder with the brakes alone. The only time I've found it useful is in light braking situations where I only want to down shift and not really brake.
h/t
pmharth,
I think what we are missing is the "fast' aspect of h/t. Fast is for drag racers,
correct is for road racers. H/t allows for correct gear selection without destabilizing the car. Take your time (initially) with h/t and concentrate on
turning the car. Remember that if there are two gears acceptible for a turn,
the higher gear is preferable.
Regards,
DA
pmharth,
I think what we are missing is the "fast' aspect of h/t. Fast is for drag racers,
correct is for road racers. H/t allows for correct gear selection without destabilizing the car. Take your time (initially) with h/t and concentrate on
turning the car. Remember that if there are two gears acceptible for a turn,
the higher gear is preferable.
Regards,
DA
It also very much depends on what comes after that corner in question, and where on the tachometer the higher gear puts you... and, where on the tachometer the real power band of your motor is... if it's another turn that follows the one you're coming up to, then you might do well to keep it in the same gear, especially if the following corner(s) need to be taken at about the same speed... of there's a straight after the corner in question, then you might want o shift down a gear for better acceleration, if that lower gear puts you in a better part of the power band... it also depends on how fast one is at H&T downshifting... will you gain more time back using the lower gear, versus the time you loose doing a downshift?
So, it really all depends...
brad
So, it really all depends...
brad
Many thanks for all of the info on H/T shifting. I didn't expect such a great response. As a newbie I will try to summarize what I've learned here:
1. It is possible even at a racer/ instructor level to NOT H/T. Possibly these drivers are particularly good at some other aspect of cornering that they can do this. However, it seems that all agree that it is easier on your drive train to not have the engine do the braking. A book I'm reading "Speed Secrets" by Ross Bentley (an admitted purist) says that you should use your brakes to slow down, not your engine. His reasoning is that modern race cars (CS!) have very sohisticated brakes that can decelerate faster than the engine can accelerate, that is their purpose.
2. For less experienced drivers it is probably best to learn H/T to match engine revs and prevent destabilizing the car when downshifting, a real concern when cornering. I have to agree with the comment that it is better to know H/T and not use it most of the time, rather than not know how to do it at all.
3. As for technique, I took your advice to bridge between the brake and gas pedal with the upper part of my right foot, with my heel off the floor. I actually did not have to brake that hard (really depress the brake to the level of the gas pedal) to get this to work. I first tried the suggested clutch, blip, downshift w/o the brake and it helped me prepare for the more advanced version with braking. A tip (blip?) of the hat for all the great advice.
4. I'm really getting caught up with all of the technology and lingo of racing. Even though I have only driven on a track once, and may not again for a while, driving this car is so much fun, I want to try it all. This shifting technique is just another chance to experiment and push my driving a little bit. Great to have a car that really makes me want to do this.
1. It is possible even at a racer/ instructor level to NOT H/T. Possibly these drivers are particularly good at some other aspect of cornering that they can do this. However, it seems that all agree that it is easier on your drive train to not have the engine do the braking. A book I'm reading "Speed Secrets" by Ross Bentley (an admitted purist) says that you should use your brakes to slow down, not your engine. His reasoning is that modern race cars (CS!) have very sohisticated brakes that can decelerate faster than the engine can accelerate, that is their purpose.
2. For less experienced drivers it is probably best to learn H/T to match engine revs and prevent destabilizing the car when downshifting, a real concern when cornering. I have to agree with the comment that it is better to know H/T and not use it most of the time, rather than not know how to do it at all.
3. As for technique, I took your advice to bridge between the brake and gas pedal with the upper part of my right foot, with my heel off the floor. I actually did not have to brake that hard (really depress the brake to the level of the gas pedal) to get this to work. I first tried the suggested clutch, blip, downshift w/o the brake and it helped me prepare for the more advanced version with braking. A tip (blip?) of the hat for all the great advice.
4. I'm really getting caught up with all of the technology and lingo of racing. Even though I have only driven on a track once, and may not again for a while, driving this car is so much fun, I want to try it all. This shifting technique is just another chance to experiment and push my driving a little bit. Great to have a car that really makes me want to do this.
I learned heel-toe from Skip Barber racing school a number of years ago, and besides track and auto-x events, I use it (to varying degrees) even in daily driving. My daily driver for the last 6 years has been an e36 M3 and from light to heavy braking, the brake pedal and accelerator are at about the same height, making it optimum for heel-toe (really left-side-of-the-foot/right-side-of-the-foot). Now that I've had the opportunity to spend some time in Boxter and Cayman, I find it impossible to heel-toe in the same manner in those cars. And actually the only way to do it would literally be "heel-toe" which is crazy.
Luckily, I think somebody posted something about some sort of adapter for the accelerator pedal that would get them closer to the same height? But I can't help but wonder what the Porsche design consideration was there? On the surface, that just doesn't make sense, but maybe Porsche drivers heel-toe differently than BMW drivers?
Luckily, I think somebody posted something about some sort of adapter for the accelerator pedal that would get them closer to the same height? But I can't help but wonder what the Porsche design consideration was there? On the surface, that just doesn't make sense, but maybe Porsche drivers heel-toe differently than BMW drivers?
At the risk of repeating myself TOO many times...yes, it is possible to lower the brake pedal on a Cayman, as opposed to what the dealer might say. Cut away the clamp (you'll need to replace this piece) around the outboard end of the rubber boot where the brake pedal shaft goes into the cylinder. Presto, find adjustment screws, lower to taste (about 1/2", maybe a TINY bit more), test carefully on a clean, dry street, adjust as needed, reinstall boot and clamp. It made a huge difference for me, and now I can h/t perfectly using the side of my foot. Also, after slipping off the brake pedal on rainy days a few times with a few exciting moments as a result, I bit the bullet and bought a set of UtimatePedals...perfection.
pmhearth
Look at the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez (Skip Barber Instructor). I have found it even more valuable than the Speed secrets series. Skip Barber also has an excellent DVD by (iirc?!) the same title. (can't seem to find it at the moment)
As far as pedal position for h/t I think the BMWs/Minis are slightly easier on the street. The CS pedal position comes into its own at the track where we are braking much harder as we h/t downshift. Then they seem perfect. There was a thread a few months back about how to adjust brake pedal height.
Tom
Look at the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez (Skip Barber Instructor). I have found it even more valuable than the Speed secrets series. Skip Barber also has an excellent DVD by (iirc?!) the same title. (can't seem to find it at the moment)
As far as pedal position for h/t I think the BMWs/Minis are slightly easier on the street. The CS pedal position comes into its own at the track where we are braking much harder as we h/t downshift. Then they seem perfect. There was a thread a few months back about how to adjust brake pedal height.
Tom
Here's the easiest demo on the web for HT:
Quick Feet - Feature/Features/Classic Cars/High Performance/Hot Lists/Reviews/Car and Driver - Car And Driver
I HT all the time, even on the street, even in gridlocked traffic, and in the case of 1-2-3 now I DD then HT too.
The reason why I'm doing it? All this was the ONLY reason I bought a manual car. It takes the boredom out of driving, and by finessing the skill, you have achieved something, a little bit at a time, make you happier.
Will u lose traction if don't HT? NOT at all if you don't trail brake. Will you lose time if you don't trail brake? Yeah, sorta, but small amount of time, all depends on the corner - if decreasing radius corner you WILL lose substantial amount.
Do you need to HT to drive fast? On most tracks, no. Will your clutch last longer if you HT? Most definitely, but if you screw up the HT all the time, your clutch will wear out even faster. Will you drive smoother with HT - on a manual car, HT is the only way you can drive as smooth as an auto. When I was in germany, all the cabdrivers (I experienced) with manual cars HT and DD, giving you the smoothest trip you ever had.
I think if one doesn't HT and DD, why not get an automatic?
Quick Feet - Feature/Features/Classic Cars/High Performance/Hot Lists/Reviews/Car and Driver - Car And Driver
I HT all the time, even on the street, even in gridlocked traffic, and in the case of 1-2-3 now I DD then HT too.
The reason why I'm doing it? All this was the ONLY reason I bought a manual car. It takes the boredom out of driving, and by finessing the skill, you have achieved something, a little bit at a time, make you happier.
Will u lose traction if don't HT? NOT at all if you don't trail brake. Will you lose time if you don't trail brake? Yeah, sorta, but small amount of time, all depends on the corner - if decreasing radius corner you WILL lose substantial amount.
Do you need to HT to drive fast? On most tracks, no. Will your clutch last longer if you HT? Most definitely, but if you screw up the HT all the time, your clutch will wear out even faster. Will you drive smoother with HT - on a manual car, HT is the only way you can drive as smooth as an auto. When I was in germany, all the cabdrivers (I experienced) with manual cars HT and DD, giving you the smoothest trip you ever had.
I think if one doesn't HT and DD, why not get an automatic?
gr8 info thx guys.
Now a question that pops in my head a lot, I've never been on a track so I only H/T on the street. But I dont really know WHEN should that be done? For example, lets say you brake on corner entry, when should one blip the throttle and release the clutch?!
________________________
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