[K-Man S]

For a set of 6 I might consider it, but EACH come on, they aren't made of gold you know... I can get an aftermarket set for $700 for an entire set and those are hi performance forged pistons with teflon coating.

 

[Slatfatf]

Well, then, this is starting to be a bit more affordable. If the rods are reusable, and a set of pistons can be acquired for $700, maybe a crankshaft can be acquired from a blown motor at a reasonable price. Tischler has the new one at $2919.

 

[ezmoney]

Well, then, this is starting to be a bit more affordable. If the rods are reusable, and a set of pistons can be acquired for $700, maybe a crankshaft can be acquired from a blown motor at a reasonable price. Tischler has the new one at $2919.

Would the added increase in HP/performance warrant the expense and labor involved?

 

[ChrisN]

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I note that Sharky has increased his GTR RS from 3.6 to 3.8 by putting in thinner liners (and I guess logically, he'd have to put in bigger pistons). I wonder if the same thing could be done here.

 

[Slatfatf]

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I note that Sharky has increased his GTR RS from 3.6 to 3.8 by putting in thinner liners (and I guess logically, he'd have to put in bigger pistons). I wonder if the same thing could be done here.

The Cayman and the GT3 have completely different blocks.

That being said, the Cayman block has pressed-in iron liners, and it MIGHT be possible to press them out and install the liners from the 997S engine (3.8 L). If someone were to try this, they would certainly be boldly going where no man has gone before...

 

[Gator Bite]

The Cayman and the GT3 have completely different blocks.

That being said, the Cayman block has pressed-in iron liners, and it MIGHT be possible to press them out and install the liners from the 997S engine (3.8 L). If someone were to try this, they would certainly be boldly going where no man has gone before...

Slight correction there. All Porsche engines since 1997 have used Lokasil liners, not iron. Lokasil is an alloy made of aluminum and silicon. Very very hard and slippery, very durable and used exclusively by Porsche. There is no way to press them out. They are cast into the block under pressure.

Good reading on different liner options and Lokasil: The Boring TruthEverybody's got ideas about treating cylinder bores; strong ideas

About Wendland. I had Ina look over the site this morning. She confirmed the conclusion I drew with my limited knowledge of the German language. They do not clearly list how they achieve their gains and there is no talk of stroking the engine. On their page they invite people to write them for more info, but they don't give an e-mail address. They give a TELEFAX number. Ina assures me that we can write in English.

Wendland Motorentechnik GmbH, Leistungssteigerungen von Motoren (Tuning, Chip-Tuning), Entwicklung und Fertigung von Spezialteilen für die Automobiltechnik

In the left hand navigation window click 'Tuning Porsche' and 'Kontakt'

 

[arenared]

Also take a look at Autofarm (UK): AUTOFARM | Engine capacity increases for what's possible. Also see LN Engineering at "Nickies" for the Porsche 986/996 for liners and pistons. You could likely take yours to 4.0L as long as you're replacing the crank.

 

[Slatfatf]

Slight correction there. All Porsche engines since 1997 have used Lokasil liners, not iron. Lokasil is an alloy made of aluminum and silicon.

Sorry about my error. I got the information about the iron liners from Porsche's Product Information Guide, page 17 (The Cayman Club - Downloads - Cayman Product Information Guide).

"Crankcase - In aluminum with aluminum bearing saddle and grey cast iron inserts"

I assumed "iron inserts" referred to the cylinders, but apparently I was mistaken. I wonder where the cast iron inserts are, and what they're for, if they're not the cylinders...

Also take a look at Autofarm (UK): AUTOFARM | Engine capacity increases for what's possible. Also see LN Engineering at "Nickies" for the Porsche 986/996 for liners and pistons. You could likely take yours to 4.0L as long as you're replacing the crank.

Great links, arenared! The Nickies look very cost effective...

So, for $3900 we can get the bore taken out to 102mm, and for another $2919 we can get the stroke increased to 82.2mm, bringing us up to $6820 (plus misc. parts and labor) for 4.06L. That should be worth about 65HP, and so this is getting to be reasonably cost effective, at about $100/HP (plus misc. parts and labor).

 

[Ghost Rider]

I'm pretty sure Lokasil is just a coating on a cast iron cylinder insert.

 

[K-Man S]

I think the cast iron inserts refer to these, the places where the crank and bearings go:

 

[Gilles]

something else too..!

Great links, arenared! The Nickies look very cost effective...
That should be worth about 65HP, and so this is getting to be reasonably cost effective, at about $100/HP (plus misc. parts and labor).

Fort, what about the increased torque..?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Ken, you must be right. I did some research and found that Lokasil is a coating on the aluminum block. So I guess there aren't any inserts at all.

 

[Slatfatf]

Fort, what about the increased torque..?

As a first approximation, just scale the torque by the increase in displacement: so torque and HP would both go up by the ratio of 4.06/3.4 = 1.194, or about a 20% gain.

 

[Gator Bite]

"Crankcase - In aluminum with aluminum bearing saddle and grey cast iron inserts"

I assumed "iron inserts" referred to the cylinders, but apparently I was mistaken. I wonder where the cast iron inserts are, and what they're for, if they're not the cylinders...

Ah, OK. I can see why you might think that. Easy mistake to make. And by the way, you never have to apologize for making a mistake at the Cayman Club.

The cast iron inserts that you read about are for the bearing saddles. You can see them in the picture that Ken posted above. (these are the culprits behind the RMS problems in the earlier Boxsters.)

I'm pretty sure Lokasil is just a coating on a cast iron cylinder insert.

Ken, you must be right. I did some research and found that Lokasil is a coating on the aluminum block. So I guess there aren't any inserts at all.

Negative. Lokasil is an actual alloy and the bore liners are quite thick.

Nikasil is a plating, only thousandths of an inch thick, and problematic as it wears off. BMW learned the hard way that this stuff doesn't hold up in modern day automotive applications because high sulfur fuels will eat it away.

Lokasil is way better. In fact, it's probably the single best cylinder liner option available, and only available in Porsches.

But like the cast iron bearing saddle inserts, these liners are not without their flaws. In 1999 the vendor who makes the crankcases for Porsche tried to press some Lokasil liners into blocks instead of squeeze casting them like they had been doing. That lead to a rash of 1999 engines going to **** as the liners broke away from the crankcase, got sucked into the the sump and disintegrated once hit by the connecting rods. Can you say 'blown engine'? The problem was corrected early on and the Lokasil liners since have been holding up very well.

Here are a few pics for you:

More than you ever wanted to know about bore liners and casting methods: http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/kspg_produktbroschueren/a_druckguss_u_squeeze_casting_e.pdf

 

[K-Man S]

So are you saying we could bore out our 3.4L blocks to 3.8 without issue? Actually it would be a 3mm diameter bore increase from 96mm to 99mm, that means 1.5 mm of wall thickness would go bye bye.

 

[Ghost Rider]

More than you ever wanted to know about bore liners and casting methods: http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/kspg_produktbroschueren/a_druckguss_u_squeeze_casting_e.pdf

Based on the description in that article, I still don't see how Lokasil qualifies as a liner. It is an insert that, during the casting process, creates an alloy with the softer aluminum of the block at the cylinder bores. The article itself describes it as a "treatment", not a liner.

It would also appear that pressing a Lokasil "treatment" into a block and expecting the engine to function would be borderline insane. Are you sure that Porsche wasn't using a press in liner that had been treated with Lokasil?

 

[Slatfatf]

Machining away some of the Lokasil seems risky. Pressing in a larger Lokasil bore seems risky. The Nickies approach seems more reasonable to me. Porsche successfully used Nikasil cylinders for over 20 years before changing to Lokasil, and LN Engineering offers a lifetime warranty. So Nikasil does have a good service history in Porsche engines. Also, with the Nickies you can get to a 102mm bore, and I don't see any other approach that gets you there.

In any case, installing Nickies and a longer stroke crank does appear to be possible, and it is a lot cheaper than a 3.8 crate engine.

 

[Gator Bite]

Based on the description in that article, I still don't see how Lokasil qualifies as a liner. It is an insert that, during the casting process, creates an alloy with the softer aluminum of the block at the cylinder bores. The article itself describes it as a "treatment", not a liner.

It would also appear that pressing a Lokasil "treatment" into a block and expecting the engine to function would be borderline insane. Are you sure that Porsche wasn't using a press in liner that had been treated with Lokasil?

Ghost Rider,

I think you and I are splitting hairs over terminology. Liner/Insert, what would the difference be? My point was to respectfully disagree with your earlier description of Lokasil as a 'coating'.

To me, a coating would be a very thin application of material, usually applied using a plating process. To me, Chrome would be a coating. So would Nikasil. They are applied with an electro plating process and their thickness is measured in thousandths of an inch.

A Liner, Insert or Sleeve to me would be something more substantial. A solid part that you could actually hold in your hand. As you can see in the pictures and document provided, the Lokasil liners are parts that are actually cast separately from the block. Their wall thickness appear to be somewhere between 4-6 mm. Much different than a coating.

Pressing a Lokasil liner did prove to be a bad idea. As the story goes, the vendor claims that their 'squeeze casting' machine broke, preventing them from being able to make blocks for a period of time. During this time they claim that they refurbished some defective blocks by pressing Lokasil liners into them so they could keep delivering blocks while repairing the squeeze casting machine. I can't vouch for the story, because as stories go facts and claims change. But the end result is pretty undeniable. There were a rash of 1999 Boxsters that were sucking up cylinder liners. The lousy part is that many Porsches see light use and accumulate mileage very slowly, so many of these liners didn't self destruct until the cars were out of warranty. I understand Porsche adopted an unofficial policy to work with those customers and I know a lot of Boxster owners got new engines outside of their warranty, but they had to pay for the labor.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It is probably not accurate to describe the Lokasil process as either a "coating" or a "liner". While a coating could be thick or thin, I agree that the term doesn't describe the process very well. But neither does "liner".

The article you linked to and other sources describes the Lokasil as a "treatment", which involves an insert (call it a liner if you want) is placed into the block that is dissolved into the aluminum of the block during the casting process, in order to harden the cylinder walls. The "insert", while a seperate piece before the block is cast, becomes alloyed with the aluminum of the block and disappears during the casting process.

To me, a "liner" is the same thing as a sleeve. It is a seperate piece. I'm having trouble with the concept that a Lokasil insert, designed to be consumed in the casting process, could be substituted for a sleeve. But perhaps that explains why it didn't work.

 

[jeff alton]

Old Post, but yes, we have built a couple of 4.0 using a 3.6 crank/rod combo and 101mm custom pistons.