Some pictures of the 2.9L engine internals (~15000km):

Head seen from the combustion side. Look at the spark plugs, they all look identical and clean. The exhaust valves are the small ones (smaller circles/heads):

The head gasket looks perfectly fine:

Here you can see the block. From left to right, cylinders #3, #2, #1 and respective pistons (#1 is at the top):

Cylinder #3. Cylinder wall and piston both look normal, no scratches:

Cylinder #2. Cylinder wall and piston both look normal, no scratches:

Another shot of the cylinder #2. #1 looked like this also (i didn't took a picture because at the time i was photographing the #1 piston was at the top):

 

Some pictures of the 2.9L engine internals (~15000km):

Head seen from the combustion side. Look at the spark plugs, they all look identical and clean. The exhaust valves are the small ones (smaller circles/heads):

I agree your pictures now don't show any black carbon deposit. Not sure why the first ones you posted seem to.

This will be my last post to your thread. Not sure you really care to hear other discussion or neutral feedback anyway.

Good luck with whatever you find...

 

I don't get it, valves were fine, guides were fine, pistons were fine, cylinders were fine. What's the "secret" ?

 

Guides were fine?! So far, the only thing it was said is that Porsche doesn't give the specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances therefore an alternative method to access the exhaust valve guides condition had to be found. Never got the chance to test #1 exhaust valve guides with the 'wiggle by hand' method, remember?!

Be patient my friend...

 

Head seen from the valve train side without the camshafts and the lifters:

Camshafts. The one on the top is from the intake side:

Another shot of the camshafts:

Exhaust hydraulic lifters. They all looked fine:

Intake hydraulic lifters and all the oil inlets/outlets needed for the Variocam Plus variable lift to work and for valve lash compensation. They all looked fine:

From the last picture you can clearly see that the lifter has a 'latch' that doesn't allow it to rotate in its bore while the intake valves are being actuated (same for the exhaust lifters).

 

Its going to be like the "secret ingredient", in the Secret ingredient soup, from the movie Kung Fu Panda.

 

In order to apply the 'wiggle by hand' method the valve springs of #3 and #2 had to come off exposing the exhaust valve seals. The seals looked fine.

Thus, in searching for an alternative method to access the exhaust valve guides condition, because Porsche doesn't give the specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances, a true revelation was presented before my eyes.

There it was... i started reading and from the very first lines i could swear i was reading a Porsche's discussion group forum and I couldn't stop myself from having a good loud laugh.:hilarious:

What did a 2003-2004 Ford 4.6L DOHC V8 engine have in common with a gen2 Porsche engine despite the fact of both are all made of aluminium and both have DOHC direct-acting hydraulic valve lifters?!

Please, do take the time to read the following links to understand the answer to that question and to the gen2 base Cayman smoking problem. It's VERY IMPORTANT:

Blue Exhaust Smoke On Cold Start - MercuryMarauder.net Forums
Smoke on start up - MercuryMarauder.net Forums
Blue Smoke - MercuryMarauder.net Forums
Took her in for the infamous "blue smoke" issue - Page 3 - MercuryMarauder.net Forums
Tick... Tick... Tick...again... - Page 4 - MercuryMarauder.net Forums



I'll do just a few important quotes from Dennis Reinhart (Reinhart Automotive) which is the resident Ford specialist in that forum(which the links point to) :

MercuryMarauder.net Forums - View Single Post - Took her in for the infamous "blue smoke" issue

Again I hate to see people get jerked around, a oil consumption test may show NOTHING if its a bad drivers head, there is a TSB on this, I am in school for two days if you call me on Friday I will fax this over to you.

MercuryMarauder.net Forums - View Single Post - LOUD enigine tapping noise!

I think you are confused, the TSB for the drivers head is because Ford had two different vendors making the right and left cylinder heads, and they sup[osidly have issues with the drivers head. That is why they only change the drivers side head and it was for ticking and or smoking, not rod knock, I can see no way the dealer can change out a single rod and have the car back to you in two days and I would never settle for this repair, all the rods should be changed and or checked, so you may mean the dealer is changing the head, I have no idea, but from your description it does not make sence.

MercuryMarauder.net Forums - View Single Post - Took her in for the infamous "blue smoke" issue

HERE IS THE TSB FOR THE TICKING NOISE this apply AS WELL AS BLUE SMOKE ON START UP.

Now it does no specifically say smoke on start up, but you have to read the TSB it states that there will be damage to the valve guides, which of course will cause oil to leak in the cylinders, and some of you may wonder why they do not change both heads the answer is very simple the passenger head was made by a different company and they do not have this issue, only on the drivers side, so I hope this helps the members here I have already arranger to have member in Miami to bring the car and I will have the head replaced UNDER WARRANTY.

See Ford's TSB on the subject:
MercuryMarauder.net Forums - View Single Post - Tick... Tick... Tick...again...

To be continued...

 

So a decade ago Ford built crappy engines and put them in Mercury cars, I fail to see the connection between those and current Porsche engines. If you found something wrong with your engine when the dealer pulled it apart then tell us what it was, otherwise I'm chalking this topic up to another conspiracy theorist conjecture about what *might* be wrong with something that may not even have a problem in the first place...

 

Ken,

Once again I think i deserve more credit from you than that. Please let me show you not only what i found wrong with my engine but how i did find it. This was a learning process and people have the right to know all the facts and judge for themselves. I'll get into the conclusions on the next posts. Please, all i ask is a little bit of time. Thank you!

 

So, I have Ford's TSB addressing a very, very similar issue to that i've been experiencing with the gen 2 Caymans... but what about the alternative method to access the exhaust valve guides condition because Porsche doesn't give the specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances?

Once again and after a thoroughly search, i managed to find it:

The 'flat head screwdriver wiggle' test:

All i needed to do was to apply this very same test to bank #1 of my Cayman's engine... and what did i find?

 

Ok I watched that video and it sure looked like the valves they were reporting to be "bad" flexed the same amount as the ones they were reporting to be "good". Yes I could see some slight color differences in how much soot was around the valves in the different ports, but simply flexing with a screwdriver doesn't prove anything.

Those valves should have been removed and the valve guide clearances measured. Only that way could you definitively state that one or more valves had "too much" clearance. Probing with a screwdriver and flexing the valve doesn't cut it. I'm not saying the engine didn't have a problem or that some valve guides had bad clearances in that motor, maybe they did, but that video didn't prove anything. I want facts, not conjecture.

 

Those valves should have been removed and the valve guide clearances measured. Only that way could you definitively state that one or more valves had "too much" clearance.

Unfortunately, Porsche doesn't give the specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances. So, if you want that kind of facts ask Porsche about those and post them here please. I'll be most grateful.

Probing with a screwdriver and flexing the valve doesn't cut it. I'm not saying the engine didn't have a problem or that some valve guides had bad clearances in that motor, maybe they did, but that video didn't prove anything.

Man, you didn't even wait to see the connection between that vid and the gen2 base Cayman engines that you were asking for in the first place... you already knew the answer. Bad of you!

Please, do read these links to Porsche's foruns about the "flat head screwdriver wiggle" test:

Worn valve guides vs. loose valves. - Pelican Parts Technical BBS
How to check for valve guide wear. - Pelican Parts Technical BBS
Ticking sound in engine - Pelican Parts Technical BBS
PPI Finding -Valve Guide Issue Question - ******** Discussion Forums
Valve guide issues?? - ******** Discussion Forums

 

To have access to the exhaust valve guides on bank #1 first the exhaust manifold had to come out:

If you take a better look at the picture you can see how #1 and #2 exhaust runners (the first two from the left) have some kind of abrasion which is not present inside the runner from cylinder #3. They are not of equal length (or shape) thus i don't know if that abrasion have to do with the exhaust gas flow dynamics through the first two runners (they are more alike) which is different from what happens in the third one. Nevertheless, i find it strange.

 

Not sure what the conclusion is... and admit I didn't look at the Ford stuff. But I like seeing all the teardown photos. That kind of detail may help others someday.

I sure do see a lot of carbon buildup on the piston head. More than I expected for a fairly new car.

However, my Cayman's motors never been apart at all, or had trouble, so I really can't make any direct comparisons. I have had a 25 year old boat engine that far apart and the piston carbon buildup was a problem at that point for it - and the valve lifters were sticking. (It was a Ski Nautigue - inboard ford marine engine - turns like a Porsche - but on water!)

 

Not sure what the conclusion is... and admit I didn't look at the Ford stuff. But I like seeing all the teardown photos. That kind of detail may help others someday.

It's important that you read the Ford stuff because you'll be suprised by how equal the arguments are to those we find here (flat engine layout cause aside). It's amazing. It really is. Then, you can understand how a bad (head) valve guide(s) case can misleading people. And, you can find a lot more threads than those i've posted a link to about the very same issue. Just like over here.

I sure do see a lot of carbon buildup on the piston head. More than I expected for a fairly new car.

No. The pistons heads were fine and not so 'dark' as you see in the pictures.

 

Ok! Time to test the exhaust guides of bank #1 for loosing valves on my gen2 base Cayman. Before any of you start to say that only the valves are flexing let me tell you that the test consisted of putting the screwdriver's flat head in a vertical position against the exhaust port wall next to the valve, which is off its seat in an open position. Next, the srewdriver's flat head is ONLY rotated in the valve direction from its initial vertical positon to a more horizontal one moving the valve stem in the guide. One way to access that valve stem isn't only flexing due to the force being applied to it is by knowing the amount of force needed to make the valve moving. And, I can positively say that the force needed to make cyl. #1 left exhaust valve moving by rotating the screwdriver head is the least of them all. Cyl. #1 right exhaust valve and cyl. #2 left side both needed more force applied to move. Cyl. #2 right exhaust valve barely moved, the same was true for all the other exhaust valves, bank #2 included. So, the conclusion is that cyl. #1 left exhaust valve is definitely loose in its guide and cyl. #1 right and cyl. #2 left exhaust valves are starting to get loose. This points out to a slightly worn valve guide and two others that are starting to get worn.

Cylinder #1 exhaust valves:

Cylinder #2 exhaust valves:

Ticking noise at idle (all temperatures) from passenger side rear wheel well:

 

A question still remains unanswered: why do the gen2 base Cayman engines have premature worn valve guides?

I'll get into it later.

 

Cool tear down pics.

So if your theory is correct, and what you are observing is valve guide wear in low-mileage engines, I wonder why the problem seems to get better over time, and not worse? Also, the engines I've seen smoke the worst are Gen 1 engines, not Gen 2 engines... so does this mean Porsche may have a general, broad-based valve guide wear problem? It is difficult to believe.

I wonder how a new engine would respond to your screwdriver test? I wonder if on new engines all of the valves would require equal pressure for displacement? Without the ability to measure it is difficult to know exactly what the true situation is.

I'm still not convinced. If what you say is true, why did our 9A1 base engine smoke less over time?

 

Yes you hit the nail on the head. So a screwdriver was able to bend a valve.

1) How much force was required to bend each valve?
(This was never measured or provided nor was there any standard way of mounting the screwdriver as a lever arm, even a slightly different position could have dramatically different force readings if the force was ever measured)
2) How much force "should" be required to move a perfectly good valve with a perfectly good guide?
3) Assuming that some sort of rig could be built to accurately measure the force required to deflect a valve, what would the results be for a 3.2L engine? any other Porsche engine? New vs. Used?


The problem I see here is that a so-called "test" was done but it wasn't done in any scientifically meaningful way but rather based on some backyard mechanics way of "feeling" the play in a valve. Well is that weak metal, a bad guide, or simply the placement of the lever arm? Since nothing was measured and nothing was standardized there's no way to know. Conversely I didn't see any evidence of oil deposits building up on the exhaust valves as if it had been running by the guides.

While I think it is always interesting to see the tear down pictures and video, unfortunately I don't think you can make valid conclusions about the valve guide conditions from what was done. I'm very surprised that Porsche hasn't published the valve guide clearances/allowed tolerances because Porsche dealership mechanics have to rebuild these engines and in order to do so properly they'd need these specs. The next time I'm at my dealer I will ask if they have these specs, and if they don't, there is a dealer service advisory council in the US that unanswered questions can be taken to and I'll ask that they provide the valve guide clearance specs. Once you have those it should be an easy job of measuring with the proper tools (read not a screwdriver) whether or not the clearances are within specs.

 

The secret behind startup blue smoke is simple.

These are "flat" engines - otherwise known as horizontally opposed or boxer.

Think about how the cylinders sit compared to a "normal" V or inline engine. They lay on their sides, in a horizontal manner.

Now bear in mind that piston rings are a metal to metal contact seal that does not seal absolutely perfectly - and bear in mind that there is also a ring gap where there is a direct, obstruction free path between the top and bottom sides of the piston.

With that all in mind, where will oil drain in a "normal" V or inline engine who's pistons & cylinders sit mostly vertically? It will drain down back into the crankcase - it will not siphon up on top the piston.

On the horizontal engines, it is entirely feasible that some left over oil will seep past the rings as it pools from draining off the back sides of the pistons and the upper portions of the cylinder walls to the lower portion of the cylinder. most will drain back toward the crankcase, but some will also seep past the rings.

This will manifest itself in a puff of blue smoke upon startup.

My brand new CS blew a fairly nasty puff of blue when the salesman fired it up after sitting several days without being started - but does not do it noticeably upon startup with day to day driving and should be less likely to do it as it breaks in.

There's no mystery - the reasoning is very simple - oil can and does seep past the rings with time. Same as if you poured oil on top of the piston of a "V" or inline engine - some would seep past the rings and drain down into the crankcase, it would not pool on top of the piston & sit there forever.

Ever seen a radial aircraft engine startup? It's an extreme version of the same "problem". The blue smoke they blow out on start is due to the same effect - in their case some of the pistons are upside down and a small amount of oil drains past their rings too & gets burned off upon initial startup.

And -- to me, it looked like the valves were bending/flexing against the screwdriver pressure in those videos.

 

Think about how the cylinders sit compared to a "normal" V or inline engine. They lay on their sides, in a horizontal manner.

Now bear in mind that piston rings are a metal to metal contact seal that does not seal absolutely perfectly - and bear in mind that there is also a ring gap where there is a direct, obstruction free path between the top and bottom sides of the piston.

On the horizontal engines, it is entirely feasible that some left over oil will seep past the rings as it pools from draining off the back sides of the pistons and the upper portions of the cylinder walls to the lower portion of the cylinder. most will drain back toward the crankcase, but some will also seep past the rings.

Man, look how the engine is moved around from side to side, back to forth, up and down. How can the piston rings seal then?! Alot of oil must be burned here :

 

Before I get into why do the gen2 base Cayman engines have premature worn exhaust valve guides, let's see first how oil is pulled through the exhaust guides. In fact, oil is pulled by venturi effect of the exhaust gas flow past the exhaust guide and that's the reason why, unless the guides are really worn, there's little oil consumption but enough to cause a cloud of smoke (only a few drops are needed) when this oil heats up (not burns) in the hot exhaust. You'll see in the next picture that in a flat engine it's more likely that the oil which is being pulled through the guides enters the exhaust system before it can reach the combustion chamber which is under pressure from the combustion exhaust gases:

Also, see link about Smoke generators. And I quote:

Very large or sustained smoke screens are produced by a smoke generator. This machine heats a volatile material (typically oil or an oil based mixture) to evaporate it, then mixes the vapor with cool external air at a controlled rate so it condenses to a mist with a controlled droplet size. Cruder designs simply boiled waste oil over a heater, while more sophisticated ones sprayed a specially formulated oily composition ("fog oil") through nozzles onto a heated plate. Choice of a suitable oil, and careful control of cooling rate, can produce droplet sizes close to the ideal size for Mie scattering of visible light. This produces a very effective obscuration per weight of material used. This screen can then be sustained as long as the generator is supplied with oil, and—especially if a number of generators are used—the screen can build up to a considerable size. One 50 gallon drum of fog oil can obscure 60 miles (97 km) of land in 15 minutes.

 

oil is pulled by venturi effect of the exhaust gas flow past the exhaust guide and that's the reason why, unless the guides are really worn, there's little oil consumption but enough to cause a cloud of smoke (only a few drops are needed) when this oil heats up (not burns) in the hot exhaust.

On initial start-up, when most of us experience smoke, the exhaust is cold. The only parts of the car that will be hot are the combustion chamber and the exhaust valves, so this explanation doesn't seem plausible.

 

The venturi model doesn't make any sense for initial smoke start up. It only works when the engine is running, meaning gases are going out the exhaust creating the venturi effect. If that were the case then once the engine were shut off, no more oil would leak past the guides, in fact your picture clearly shows any oil between the valve and the guide would drain back down into the head and ultimately back down into the pan. Only after oil pressure comes up and oil gets to the head could oil possibly be sucked up into the valve guide and then through venturi properties into the exhaust gas flow. This should mean that no oil puff would occur on initial startup, but that after the car ran for a few seconds a slow trickle of oil would get past the valve guides and get sucked into the exhaust gases and this would occur the entire time the engine was running. Which should mean continual smoke and continuous oil consumption the entire time the car was driven. (much like my car uses oil all the time). Most people reporting smoke are reporting only a puff at initial start up and then no smoke after that and no oil consumption.

Which goes back to a small amount of oil creeping past the cylinder rings in a horizontally opposed engine and is a 'normal' operating condition of said engines.

And in that video oil is splashing around inside the motor, but it isn't "creeping" by the rings while the engine is sitting still. When the engine is running there is an oil seal in place around the oil ring that prevents oil from simply running by the oil ring and into the cylinder combustion chamber in mass quantities. Two different scenarios. BTW the newer engines have the oil return pumps to get oil out of the heads and back down into the block, which means less oil to ever pool in the heads and get by those valve guides you want to keep blaming.

 

Ken,

When the cats are hot enough, which happens shortly after initial start-up, the oil droplets are mostly 'burned' there, that's the reason why you don't see smoke anymore. Also, oil pressure rises almost instantaneously upon start-up to assure proper lubrication of the metal moving parts otherwise they start to wear out (which they do at some extent). In fact, you need oil in the heads for the Variocam Plus and the hydraulic valve lifters to operate correctly from the get-go. And, since the gen2 Caymans have an electronic demand-controlled oil pump which sets the required oil pressure and defined volume for each engine operating state i believe there is an high oil supply demand to this pump at start-up. I still believe that's what the DME reflash (per Porsche's TSB) is for - to reduce the (initially programmed) pump demand at start-up in in an attempt to cope with the smoke upon start-up issue. Too much oil pressure for worn guides.

Please, give us the Porsche specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances.

BTW the newer engines have the oil return pumps to get oil out of the heads and back down into the block, which means less oil to ever pool in the heads and get by those valve guides you want to keep blaming.

Now we are talking serious business... that means less oil is available to the guides. It is the oil flow to the guides that creates a second heat transfer path from the valve and guide and thus augments the cooling of these components. With sufficient oil flow across the hot valve stem and upper portion of the guide, both of which are exposed in the head, heat is readily transferred from these components to the oil at the same time that it is passing through the cylinder head to be transferred to the coolant flowing through the galleries and, ultimately, to the air across the radiators. It is this additional cooling provided by the oil flow that is of paramount importance. That second heat transfer path mentioned above is successful in providing augmented valve and guide cooling that extends the longevity of those components which receive it.

 

No I said less oil to pool (and cause oil smoking problems particularly on the track), I didn't say oil starvation to the heads. You just jumped from too much oil to too little oil without any facts.

 

Just give us the Porsche specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances, please!

 

When I get to the dealer next I will...

 

Further....

In a "normal" V or Inline engine, valve seals are typically associated with smoke on startup.

Why? Because of our friend gravity. Where are the valves located in relationship to the piston of a V or Inline engine? If seals/guides are leaking, where does that oil go? Down on top of the piston unless the valve happens to be completely closed.

Now, with this in mind, note the orientation of the cylinder head on the Cayman engine in it's normal configuration. Exhaust exits out the bottom. With this configuration, the head of the valve is actually higher in the engine than the end of the stem (where the oil is normally kept) - meaning if the exhaust guide was leaky in the traditional sense, oil would have to "leak" uphill in order to reach the exhaust port. Further, it would then have to follow the valve stem uphill again to enter the chamber instead of simply draining out the exhaust port.

Further yet, if not being burn directly in the combustion chamber and instead being burned off by hot exhaust gases - the blue smoke would be delayed as it takes time for hot exhaust gasses to heat everything up enough to burn off wayward oil in the exhaust path - so the smoke would be slow to start and slow to stop.

Seems a tad unlikely, no? If the guide was so leaky that oil was being drawn out during running conditions, the engine would not stop smoking shortly after startup.

So - all that said, if you're chasing valve guides as your problem, you probably need to be looking more toward the intake valves...

 

Low coolant level is obviously dangerous but so are air pockets in the engine cooling path because air pockets tend to build up precisely in the tiny coolant passages where the flow rate tend to be less and the temperatures tend to be higher. The same thing to the low coolant level. Localized steam pockets will form where the coolant flow rates are less and the temperatures are higher: the tiny passages in the heads that cool the exhaust valves and guides.

How do you know this is true? Air pockets build up at high spots; that's why, for example, the bleed valves for the brake calipers are at the top of the calipers. Also, the MIN coolant level doesn't necessarily have anything to do with this, since you can be well below the MIN indicator, and still have a "full" cooling system.

CaymanPower, I still get the impression that you are doing nothing but speculating in your posts, but now you're speculating with some very nice photographs and the implied authority of an engine dis-assembly process. But in the end, everything you're saying is still idle speculation, especially in your comparisons to Ford V8s, which only had a problem because of a casting issue, that was fixed.

 

Yep, I'm still waiting for some proof of something wrong and what the proven cause of the something wrong actually is. So far I see lots of speculation like you blueone.

 

Please, just look at the spark plugs. They are clean as a 'whistle', just normal decoloration. Top of the pistons only has the normal combustion residue also. Compression tested good across all cylinders. I don't have excessive oil consumption. I'm not burning oil in the combustion chamber otherwise that would show up on the spark plugs after ~10k miles and a lot of smoke 'clouds' events upon cold startup. Forget it man!

As for the 'smoke delayed' argument how delayed is this so called (in Porsche foruns) 'Porsche classical startup exhaust puff' for you?! Not a youtube vid mind you:
'Delayed startup exhaust puff'

So, I guess I'm not quite following your argument.

You're arguing that the exhaust guides are experiencing abnormal wear. This wear results in oil not necessarily "leaking" up the valve stem into the combustion chamber or into the port - but being pulled thru the guide by a venturi effect from the running engine, then being burned off by hot exhaust gasses. However, the problem being chased is more of a traditional smoke on startup issue you'd have from an engine who's guides are seeping oil down on top the piston (while off) due to leaky seals or worn guides, but not leaking in enough quantity to cause continuous smoke under running conditions? Right?

So - how do we make that leap? Why doesn't the venturi effect continue as the engine runs? Why doesn't the engine smoke more as it warms up and the oil thins, making the venturi effect work even more effectively? Why is this only happening upon startup (bearing in mind that traditional guide based startup smoke problems are due to gravity pulling oil down on top the piston where it is burned off in the engine's first few combustion cycles)?

This whole debate seems based on a bunch of loosely gathered data, guessing, and picking & choosing of "facts" & examples that when all put together just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

Just like in those Ford forums, even in face of substantial evidence, there are always some people that choose to deny it. Maybe they have something to lose otherwise, just maybe...

Even before all available evidence was presented and explained there was already someone denying the slightest possibility for a problem to exist.

The truth is Ken will NEVER show us the Porsche specs. for the valve stem to guide clearances simply because Porsche will refuse to give that information.

I'm so sure of this as I am sure of the fact that all is needed to solve the blue smoke upon startup issue with my engine is an head replacement.

I will let the rest of you to judge for yourselves. Not without remind you that a problem DOES exist which has nothing to do with the flat engine configuration, and I quote Cayman_09 and Flying Fiz:

Cayman_09:

I've got a similar issue and I have been dealing with my local Porsche dealer on several occasions.

1. Porsche acknowledged that white smoke is not normal despite what is commonly said, the service manager definitely informed me that they would need to check it out.

2. Took it in and updated software which apparently alters start up and shut down engine procedures (within the DME)

3. The car was still smoking everynow and then on startup which is a large white, oily cloud of smoke - not good enough for a 140k car here in Oz.

4. Went to another dealer to get a new steering wheel fitted and the service advisor moved the car and informed me that he noticed smoke which is not normal, then booked me in for next monday for new oil/air separator.

I don't actually think the oil/air separator will fix it but I am hoping it would. Some engines with this problem have had internal work done to them as there are tolerance issues ( on a very small number of engines ) which were made known to me by one of the dealers.

What I am sure of is that Porsche Australia has replaced an engine for a customer with similar symptoms, they also informed me of their procedure in rectifying the issue.

1. Check for over filled oil
2. complete several cold and hot starts over a 48hr period
3. Reflash software.
4. If problem is still there then change Oil/air separator.
5. If problem is still there they need to go internal.

Flying Fiz:

Hey CaymanPower,

I've read your earlier (now closed threads) and responded once.

You may recall I had a 2009 2.9 Cayman and it too smoked occasionally on cold start up, from around 900 k's old. I'm talking a lot of smoke.

Dropped in to dealership and they changed or installed an oil air separator and installed the later DME software upgrade. No difference, in fact started to smoke more, big bluish smoke cloud on 85% + of cold starts. Down right embarrassing.

Dropped it back into dealership, they videoed the smoke on start up, downloaded the full diagnostics of car's history and sent it all to Germany.

Two days later Porsche Germany air freighted a new 2010 motor to the dealership.

New motor in and all is good! Now that's what I call service and that's why you buy a Porsche.

I suspect that you may have been correct and there may have been a latent defect with some examples of the 2009 2.9 litre motor (not that they would admit it).


Also I understand that it wasn't the first engine they have agreed to replace, so if your dealer downloads your cars history and sends it to Germany, so long as the problem is evident I believe they will replace the motor, which is a great comfort.

It seems that those boys from Australia know something that some of those who respond here seem to want to ignore and others missed completely. It's sad, really.


PS: 86atc250r do your homework first before you start to talk about something you obviously didn't seriously investigate. Otherwise you wouldn't be talking about the flat engines configuration and aircrafts.

 

I've asked my local service manager if he can get the specs for me. He said he'd ask one of the mechanics to look them up in the book and would let me know.

 

It seems you are more interested in attempting to insult others & pull up random internet examples in attempt to "prove" your point than to actually debate the subject on a technical level with logic and reason.

None of those posts you have just dug up has anything to say or do about any sort of valve guide issue - you've found posts from people who have apparently had (or possibly thought they had) some sort of abnormal smoke issue, had their engine replaced and are now happy. Does that prove there is some sort of guide issue? No more than it proves there is some sort of ring issue or other unknown issue that caused the engine to do something it's owner thought wasn't right (or simply appeased them in some way & got them out of the dealer's hair - happens more often than you'd believe).

And for the record - perhaps *you* should read a little more closely, I was not talking about flat engine configurations in aircraft. I was talking about *RADIAL* engines to illustrate a point about oil seepage past the rings that can and does occur when oil is allowed to pool in areas where it has the opportunity to "seep" - and the fact that it causes a fairly severe smoke on start-up condition that clears once the engine makes a few revolutions.

Perhaps there is a "problem" that causes some cars to smoke upon startup abnormally - if there is, I'm quite certain it has nothing to do with Ford engines who's configuration and set of inherent "problems" is quite different than our own. I'm equally as unconvinced that two people in Aus having complete engine replacements done because of a cold startup smoke issue proves there is some inherent problem with the exhaust valve guides in these engines (bearing in mind guides are not the only reason for startup smoke).

Just be aware of the reasons a flat engine can smoke on startup, especially if it sits for an amount of time & don't chase your tail on a problem that may not be a problem at all. If you really do have an issue, take it to the dealer and make them fix it. Don't go cowboy on a gut feeling and start trying convince everyone of it by pulling random "evidence" from all corners of the internet.

If you are so convinced - you should quit wasting your time trying to convince us and start trying to convince your dealer - perhaps he will be happy to accept all your anecdotal evidence and give you a head, if for nothing else, to get you out of his hair... Good luck to you in your endeavors.

 

It seems you are more interested in attempting to insult others & pull up random internet examples in attempt to "prove" your point than to actually debate the subject on a technical level with logic and reason.

You've got to be joking! It was my engine's head and my engine's exhaust manifolds that were pulled off; it was my engine's AOS and my engine's exhaust valve guides that were tested. It is my engine that still smokes big time occasionally upon startup and that still has a ticking noise from bank #1 head. It was my dealer that wanted to open up the engine again to replace all the hydraulic lifters per Porsche recommendation (just like some Ford folks did only to find out the problem remained) and I said no!

And you are talking to me about aircrafts and radial engines?! Should i take it as a 'random internet example', then?!

Man... if those Ford guys didn't have "wasted their time trying to convince" others just like you i wouldn't have access to such a comprehensive piece of useful information. Thus, i'm very thankful to them! Did it make them cowboys?! I don't know what Ford would be then...

 

My 2009 2.9L used to occasionally smoke on start up, but almost never now at 14K miles. So are 2.9L 9A1s also getting loose valve guides? I'm an oil ring wear-in or gap orientation conspiracy theorist myself.