[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Soul destroying?
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Yes you are correct, Porsche no longer needs the Boxster/Cayman platform. They can do just fine selling 911s and SUVs. Still for many of us who have owned Boxsters and Caymans and have been mid engine Porsche fans since the inception of the Boxster, it's sad to see the platform go this way.

As far as zero emissions and all these other mandates. This is not the peoples will or a general trend or anything else. Yeah there are segment of the population that will buy an electric car some because its trend,y and others because they feel they are doing their part to curb emissions. So what?

Ferrari has a waiting list, Porsche's sports cars are selling well as are many others. Hot rodded editions from Porsche: GT3, GT4, Ford: GT350R/R, GT, GM: Corvette, Camaro SS, not to mention many of the other uber cars are hard to get. Fisker went under, Bugatti is still building cars. Male and even some of the female millennials I know love my Porsche. Little kids on the streets eyes light up when hear the exhaust and see the car pass. *********

Not at all interested in your political views. Also, you might want to check the terms you agreed to when you signed up to use the site: no political discussion of any kind allowed.

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

The above is really the crux of the whole thing. In the beginning, the Cayman S was essentially a base 911 with the engine/tranny flipped around (thus 2 less seats,) so it was kind of the "enthusiasts" Porsche sports car, even though it was a little lower priced (in the beginning, the Cayman S was only about $12K less expensive than the base 911, and their performance was similar.) Now Porsche is drawing a much clearer line between them.

Umm...I kinda think my 6-speed, 408 HP RWD 911 is an "enthusiast" Porsche sports car...as is our PDK (my wife's DD), 320 HP RWD Cayman S. From my MGB, to multiple 240Zs, to an MR2, to a combo street/track GT3 Honda, to 996TT, a Type R, 2 S2000s and an E46 M3, all have been manual gearbox vars, and all but the MG and the Zs have seen track duty. I'm an "enthusiast" through and through...and appreciate both platforms. But to suggest enthusiasts don't buy 911s is living in a dream world.

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Of course, to the average consumer this is meaningless but to say there is no lag simply is not true, at least according to The Man, who should know And you can take it to the bank if he feels lag in a 991.1 Turbo S, a car costing one third as much won't have anywhere near as such precision.


But all this 718 bashing is getting old. Nobody is going to care. They make money or don't. They sell cars or don't. Consumers need to get over this. They aint going to change because of some people complaining. They got bigger problems to worry about.

Amen, Chows.

Porsche AG would have run focus groups and done research during development that would have provided a pretty good idea of how much FI 4-pot pushback there would be, and what segment(s) of the market would be vocal. Whether there is a sales threshold under which they pull the plug on the Boxtser/Cayman, or this is just a stopgap measure before unveiling a new FI/4-pot/hybrid electric (or a full electric) down the road, only Porsche knows. They don't care that a few normally grovelling media types are jumping on the "woe is me it's a 4-cylinder" bandwagon (same as the electric steering tempest in a teacup), or that 20 or 200 or 2000 current and former Cayman/Boxster owners wish it had a flat-six. Seriously people...get a grip: the money people here spend on Porsches is a rounding error in their global marketing budget. A P9er could set themselves on fire in their 981 in Times Square as a protest and it won't change a thing. Porsche will do what it plans to do.

I'm still looking forward to a test drive of the 718 BS, and may still buy one. Even with the guttural exhaust note and turbo, it would be quicker than my 911 GTS and almost certainly put as big a grin on my face when I'm romping around the mountain roads in these parts. Oh wait, I'm actually LIKING the exhaust note and couldn't care less that it's 4 cylinders. But Porsche already knew that about me and the others among us that might actually buy one.

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I'd be curious to know how many people here who are buying into the notion that the 4-pot turbo is a negative in the 718 have ACTUALLY DRIVEN THE CAR? If you haven't, I suggest getting down to your dealer and spending some time in one. Then decide for yourself, based on your own experience, whether the 4-pot turbo is a plus or a minus.

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I did and it was worse than I expected.

Fair enough. An opinion here from someone who has driven it and didn't like it carries more weight than what ANY journalist says. An opinion from a current or former 986/987/981 owner has even more credibility, in my view.
I drove an S and it was much better than I expected.

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

All this to and fro has me wondering what comes after the 718. The future isn't now, Shannon, the future is the future. The present is now. 981 is the past, just as my 70 HP 914 was the past in the late 70s. Maybe the move to 4 FI helps meet a meaningless government test. If so, what's the next wrinkle in the test? Or maybe the move is to get folks to buy a 911 instead. If so, what's the next move? An Elise is light, but not Porsche-luxy. Electric? Can they make a good one at a good price?? Any chance the regs will soften?


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The next move is hybrid versions of ALL models. Porsche aims to offer hybrids across model range: CEO in paper - Yahoo Finance

 

[gcurnew]

With 16,561 Porsche sports cars sold in the US in 2015 and only 3,829 Porsche sports cars sold in China in the same year - Porsche should built their sports cars for us.

Plus - Porsche is offering the 718 in China with a third - 250hp - engine option for their market anyways. If China gets it's own low power engine option, there was NO REASON for Porsche not to give their most important sports car market it's own engine option...well other than the reason from the marketing department as we all know. Porsche wants us to buy a 911.

With 22,663 Boxsters/Caymans delivered worldwide in 2015 https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/annual-report/en.html and 6,663 sold in the U.S in 2015 Porsche Sets Record Year in 2015 with 51,756 Vehicles Delivered in the United States Porsche needs to think and design its mid-engine models for the larger world market. What Americans want is likely duly noted, and factored into the product development process alongside what EMEA, China and others want.

 

[gcurnew]

lol. Six-a-holics. Good one. :cheers:

 

[gcurnew]

But the four cylinder models weren't well received by the sports car market. There was the 904, 924, and 944 which had relatively sort runs, while the six cylinder 911 is still thriving. Porsche would never put a 4 cylinder in their 911.

Not a 911 exactly, but they did sell 32,000+ 912s in the '60s...a 911 body with a 4-cylinder engine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_912

I think it unlikely they'd put a 4-pot turbo in a 911 shell today and call it something else, but not outside the realm of possibility when the whole lineup goes hybrid. In a scenario where the electric motors are the primary power source and the ICE is secondary, a smaller 4-cylinder engine - substantially less displacement than the 718s - could be a better choice from a packaging, emissions and fuel economy perspective.

It's impossible to predict regulatory and market conditions that might exist 10 or 15 years down the road, and how Porsche might choose to respond. They have a history of innovation, and will do whatever it takes to succeed, both on the track and in the passenger vehicle arena. In 1990, who could have imagined that an SUV (Cayenne) would be introduced and become one of the biggest sellers in the lineup? In 2000, who could have imagined something like the 919 would win LeMans?

 

[gcurnew]

I question the veracity of the oft-stated income levels of 911 buyers. How would Porsche know? If buyers are paying cash, there's no income data. If buyers are financing they're doing it from LOCs or at lower, preferred customer rates from their own financial institutions than Porsche ever offers...and again, no income data provided to Porsche. Could Porsche be getting income data from surveys? I've purchased a new 911, a used one and a new Cayman. Other than the standard "how was the experience/rate the dealer" follow-up, I've never received a survey of any kind from Porsche asking for income data. If they (or anyone else other the the taxman or my financial institution) asked, I wouldn't tell them. Who here - either 911, Boxster/Cayman, Macan/Cayenne or Panamera owner - has been asked outside of a loan application through the dealer, for income info? If asked, who has provided the info? (Of course, providing income for a lease doesn't apply.)

Let's assume that the info has been somehow collected in a way that actually represents buyers. There are a couple of realities with respect to 911s that would skew any data collected. First is the outliers; those buyers with massive incomes in the millions or tens of millions that - unless filtered and accounted for - make an average or mean number pretty much meaningless. https://statistics.laerd.com/statistical-guides/measures-central-tendency-mean-mode-median.php

Second is which model? The price for the specialty 911s (such as the R and the PCA Clubsports) as well as GT3RSs and any GT2 is double or more what a base 911 costs and attracts a class of well-heeled buyers and collectors entirely different from "normal" 911s. Has anyone seen numbers split out for different models? I certainly haven't. I personally know two recent buyers of new 911s (one base C2, the other a C4s) and both are professionals with incomes of around $200-$250k. They both have investments and property portfolios, however, and both paid cash. (As any business owner knows, "income" is a squishy term: we can make the number be whatever it needs to be depending on the purpose and who's asking.)

Kudos to Porsche for successfully introducing and feeding this automotive meme. It feeds the 911 mystique, and helps maintain the aura of exclusivity around the company's halo product. I think it's pure marketing BS, wrapped up in bogus "statistics" and perpetuated by an automotive community that routinely passes around without question the suspect "facts" they encounter on the web.

 

[gcurnew]

LOL - or Bentley marketing is even more full of crap.

Exactly. Someone pulling down $15+ million/year isn't going to be disclosing any info with regard to their financial situation to a car manufacturer to buy a "standard" vehicle. It would be the equivalent of a $300k/year person disclosing financial info to buy a $1500 suit.

 

[gcurnew]

I don't know how it works in the States or other countries, but in Canada you can't run a "check" on anyone that would hit their credit report without their express consent. And no bank will release personal and confidential customer information without a court order or as part of a police investigation. There are money laundering checks and balances built into the banking system, but no company would have any visibility into those systems.

Without background detail on how Porsche comes up the the numbers it's CEO and others have spouted over the years on income levels, it's nothing more than statistical posturing. I'm expected to believe something simply because the (former) CEO or a company official says it's so? ROFL. Seriously people, this is a VW-owned company we're talking about.

 

[gcurnew]

I had lunch on Tuesday with the new car Sales Manager at our local dealer. He says they have only had their 2 launch 718 Boxsters and one other to sell so far this this year, and the first Cayman just arrived this week. (They are a pretty high volume dealer, and would normally have allocation numbers that put them in the top 5 in Canada.) He says he has no idea why Porsche would launch the 718 and then not provide allocations.

My read is that the Boxster/Cayman sales figures for this year are mostly leftover 981s, and only when Porsche begins making and shipping 718s in numbers will we know whether they have a winner, a dud, or something in between on their hands.

 

[gcurnew]

Yeah, well...each to their own. I think the 991.2 is the best 911 Porsche has ever made (yes, even compared to revered 993). And I know well the storied history of the NA flat six...and frankly don't give a damn for the nostalgia. (Can I interest you in nice vintage computer with a 386 processor and a 13" monochrome screen to go with your classic Porsche?) The 718 likewise takes the mid-engine platform into the future.

Why are there so many reviews, both negative and (more recently) positive, of the 718? It's because every bozo with a GoPro and an ego thinks that what they think (about the 718 and other matters so trivial as to be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things) matters to someone besides themselves. That assumption is generally incorrect.

I'm pretty sure that at some time before I croak or get tired of performance cars that I will own a 991.2 and a 718. Nothing said here will influence that decision; I've driven both and made up my own mind that they are superb machines, more than worthy of wearing the Porsche nameplate.

 

[gcurnew]

I don't have any problem paying the premium for Porsche DNA in my sports cars, but can't rationalize paying inflated prices for the Macan or the Cayenne. If we didn't have a couple of Porsche sports cars maybe we would think the SUVs are a way to get a little Porsche cachet in our lives, but in reality neither really offer a "sporting" experience that is much differentiated from a slew of offerings from Mercedes, BMW and others.

We looked hard at the Macan and ended up buying a Mercedes GLA250, which we view as being very good value, fun to drive (although the 7-speed DCT in the 250 isn't quite as sophisticated as PDK) and exceptionally well built at the price point. We like it so much we're looking at upping the ante to the AMG45, which in our view is more sporting, more fun to drive than any Porsche SUV offering, is as quick as a Macan Turbo and fully optioned comes in price-wise between a base and and a Macan S. Contrary to opinions about the AMG45 expressed elsewhere on the site, its mild FWD understeer tendencies completely disappear when driven with verve, as torque gets transferred to the rear wheels. The tuning of the DCT in the AMG versions puts it on par with PDK (GT3 and RS versions excepted), and it makes glorious sounds from its turbo 4.

While I'm in the camp that thinks Porsche sports cars are in a league of their own, the same cannot be said (with a straight face) about their SUVs.

 

[gcurnew]

tl;dr the 991S is every bit as good as a GT3 and I want it. You really can't tell it is a turbo motor. Sounds just like my 2.7L. If you can hear a turbo, it's more of a hushed woosh, where the 718 has a high pitched whistle sound. The 3.0L is totally linear. The sport plus shifts are brutal banging of the gears, just short of upsetting the chassis. The PSM sport mode is enough to let you have fun without letting you wreck. The power is absolutely thundering.

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Both the base and S versions of the 991.2 are brilliant in my view. I actually like the base a bit more than the S; the base is as quick as my 3.8 NA GTS, and the S...well it's a beast. I haven't been able to get behind the wheel of a manual gearbox 991.2, but I'm thinking a base with a 7-speed manual would be pretty close to my ideal street car. It really needs a ducktail spoiler option, though...the Sport Design mini-lip just doesn't cut it.

 

[gcurnew]

Make my self-driving car able to fly, too. That way it knocks off two unrealistic, utopian transportation "futurist" dreams at once.

 

[gcurnew]

Wow, who would have thought a thread dedicated to complaining about a new car model would be full of so many Luddites.

Oh, wait, nevermind... 


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ROFL...I'm the furthest one can possibly be from a Luddite. It never ceases to amaze me, though, how smart people get taken in by vaporware hype and clever marketing.

 

[gcurnew]

That's exactly what a Luddite would say!

I generally agree it's better to be skeptical than gullible, but in this case you and a few others are being way too skeptical, to the point of denial.

Anyway, since I'm too close to the technology being discussed here, I'm going to bow out of this particular discussion lest I inadvertently say too much. Hopefully sometime in the much-less-than-25-year future I will be able to return here and post an I-Told-You-So. I know how much everybody loves those.

-Brett

Ah...corporate and/or institutional Kool-Aid.
Having been in the tech sector as an owner and partner the past 25 years, I've been in numerous situations where we "oversold" the dream. In a couple of cases, I was a primary mixer of the Kool-Aid, and served it up to the capital markets, employees and the media. Let's just say it never quite went down the way it was sold. Inevitably, the "gotchas" got us. Even with multiple 9s application reliability, the combination of hardware failures (how's that 7 year-old, out-of-warranty first gen tech holding up?), lobby groups, regulatory bungling, swarming injury lawyers and smacks up the side of the head no-one sees coming will form the wall of resistance that needs to be broken through before the technology becomes mainstream. Perhaps my hype detectors are set a bit too sensitive, but from my perspective Theranos is a pretty good proxy for a canary in the tech mine: there's a lot of tplain BS coming out of Silicon Valley (nothing new there), and the capital markets and the media are derelict in their duty to perform effective due diligence. The pendulum has swung once again too far in the direction of "irrational exuberance."