[triode12]

https://youtu.be/O0dUM0GG8CY

Another reviewer bagging the 718 Cayman.

 

[triode12]

Sorry I read up to page 16 and then from this page back to 39... so pardon me if that review was posted before. I posted it because it fit the title. Sorry if it offended you.

I currently own two 987 Boxsters - one an 987.1 S and the other a Gen 2 Spyder - both NA F6 and manual.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I have found that the decline started with the 987 Gen 2. I drove Capercat's Gen 2 Cayman S back in 2010 or thereabouts and didn't like it - I found it too refined, It was like playing a driving video game - it flattered the driver (me). I was taking near 90 deg turns at 120km/hr. It wasn't raw or viseral enough for me. My impression of the 2008 987.1 Boxster S (which I drove on a dare) was much different (which I eventually purchased)- surprised that it could be so different in character to the Gen 2 Cayman S.

Even my recently acquired 987.2 Spyder has the same level of refinement as the Capercat's Cayman S (esp in the transmission). However, it still feels faster (sensation of speed) than his Cayman did even though it isn't going very fast (e.g. 80 km/hr doesn't feel like 60km/hr). Perhaps it is the ragtop roof that still allows the sounds to enter the cabin more easily and the 20mm lower suspension that gives one the sensation of higher speed.

I have driven the 981 B/C as service loan cars and didn't like the experience, the refinement was at an even higher level than the 987 Gen2 and the car had grown a bit in size compared to the 987. So I am not a fan of even the 981 in this regard (just my personal bias) - not a criticism of the car which will outperform the 987 any day.

I haven't driven the 718 but if it is as refined as the 981 is, I will probably not like it. I prefer my cars to be as analog and visceral as possible. I don't need to have the fastest car but it has to be fun to drive. Perhaps why I prefer the Boxsters over the Caymans - I don't feel so insulated from the sounds and sensations of the drive.

 

[triode12]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Hey triode12,
If you considered driving my 987.2 felt too refined, akin to playing a video game; I suggest you get an older MX-5 (Miata) raw & ragtop.
I personally look for refinement & luxury in a sports car, so it looks like the 718 GTS has my name on it :banana:

Hey Rocco, it isn't about how fun the car to drive is for you. It is all about beating the other guy at the lights, or on the road. Just admit it - it is an ego thing.

"Get used to eating my dust on future drives………..I will see tiny white dot in my rearview mirror. "

I see that you have been trying to convince yourself into buying the 718 since August on this thread. Just go and buy it already - you don't need the test drive since you have already made up your mind.

If that is the case, you should track you car instead of trying to race someone on the street. I have considered an NA or NA2 MX5 many times as track car - I might one day get one.

 

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I thought that Porsche was a sports car company first not a luxury car company. For many years, the cars were all about the driver and the driving experience (they were minimalist cars). Sadly, they are moving towards being a luxury car/SUV (luxobarge) company at the expense of the drive.

The cars are becoming so refined that you lose the visceral sensations of the drive (electrically assisted steering, Porsche Torque vectoring) - where is the fun in that? Is it any wonder that the older 911s are now rising in price astronomically? They are fun to drive.

Sure you are now able to go faster than before but so what? You can go fast in a lot of lesser cars for less money. The AMG45/M2 will give the 718 a run for it's money (for less and perhaps more fun)

 

[triode12]

Or regressing, if you subscribe to my POV.

 

[triode12]

A valid point and one taken by TTAC (I think it was TTAC) in which the point was made ... why do we read reviews made by people who can't drive the cars at 10/10s? Fast to them is not fast to the race car drivers.

OK, throw out all those reviews, both positive and negative. Filter them out. I'm not going to read all this thread again but a few from the top. EVO, CAR, and Chris Harris. I'll trust them. Forget about the gopro journalists.

EVO http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/17792/porsche-718-boxster-review-why-everything-porsche-touches-doesn-t-always-turn
Disappointing. Underwhelming. Soul destroying … New engine ruins the experience

Car Porsche 718 Boxster S (2016) review by CAR Magazine Firing the Boxster S’s engine into life results in disappointment, unfortunately.

Chris Harris Chris Harris Drives: the Porsche 718 Boxster | Top Gear

“A great little car, just not as good as the one you could have bought last year”.

None of this changes that negative reviews, from reputable and established reviewers, existed to this extent before ... that was the point. I hope that clarified this. BTW, of course we will buy these cars in the future. If you want a new Porsche, we have no choice. Of course they are faster and of course they have more fancy stuff in them. That's evolution. But none of that changes what reputable reviewers have written, and I found that startingling.

Don't forget this one too:

https://youtu.be/iH_T1ZxnuTI

 

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tridoe12 will bang on all day about how he dislikes refined cars, which is rather odd as he bought a 987.2 Spyder but could have bought something much less refined for a fraction of the price...

At least I can take criticism of a car I own even admitting to the fact that the Gen 2 is more refined than the Gen 1. One thing I do not do is say one thing and then doing a 180 degree flip every few weeks.


You used to bang on about your how great your Gen 2 Cayman was and how you were going to keep it for life, and how did that work out? Within 18 months, you sold it to buy a Renault Cleo which you then said was better than the Cayman and that it would be your car for life. But then you found out that the Cleo's suspension was too harsh and the seats too uncomfortable, that the quality of the car was bad (you complained that you had to take it back to Renault for warranty fixes to the the never centered steering wheel, the A pillar that was never properly welded at the factory)


And then you kept the Cleo for another 2 years before buying a 135i which you then said is the best car you've owned. The 135i is the only car you've had for more than 2 years and that is only because you can't get a good trade in price for it.


And lets not forget that you went to the Porsche dealer just 6 months ago to buy a 981GTS but you had left it too long (because you vacillated) and they told you that you could no longer order one.


And you also said that you would never buy a Porsche with a 4 cylinder turbo engine for the prices that they sell for because one would be silly to spend so much for a Porsche with a 4 cyl engine. That the 6 cyl engine was iconic.

We went to the 718 Boxster launch together and you were criticising the interior for it's low quality, how you hated the design of the rear.


And you were vacillating about this right up to a couple of weeks ago while all this time online on this very forum, you've been psyching yourself up to buy the 718. You went to the launch of the 718 Cayman last Saturday and now you say that the interior is better than the previous ones, how you like the design of the rear. (hang on, isn't the interior of the 718 Boxster and the rear the same as the 718 Cayman?)


Just admit it, you want a fast car, it is not about the driving experience but the ability to beat others on the road.

 

[triode12]

Everything? Not certain that I agree with that observation.
After all these post I see a pattern developing. There are many posters who have expressed their concerns with the 718, and there are others who love the 718 and post why. The big difference is that I don't recall anyone who has concerns with the 718, trying to dissuade anyone from buying it. On the other hand those who love the 718 seem to be on a mission to try to change the minds of the 718 naysayers. My question is why try? If you love the 718, buy it and enjoy it, but don't waste your time trying to convince everyone that it is the best Porsche ever.
As a four decade owner of 911s, the car that I enjoyed the most was my 993. Hell, even a 987 will easily outperform it, but there's a lot more to enjoying a sports car than how fast it is. If that weren't the case, buyers wouldn't be paying $70K+ for twenty year old 993s which have around 270 HP and would be fortunate to do a 0-60 in 5.7 seconds.

Exactly, it is about the driving experience, not how fast you can go. There will always be other cars on the road that would better than yours. If you want performance, go buy the Nissan GT-R or a road bike which will wipe the floor with the 718 and it is cheaper to boot.

 

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Drive one and you will change your mind, both the 981 and 718 are visceral driving experiences. In regard to the the AMG45 it suffers from terminal understeer rounded out by a poor implementation of haldex and suspension made out of girders - you really don't have more fun in this car........ever.

The M2 is great bang for buck if you were looking at a M3 or M4 - however, the 718S is in a different league as has been shown. Why would you think a car that weighs 300lbs more than a 718, is known to be very laggy and pulls less Gs is "perhaps" more fun? (M2 365HP, 1/4 mile 12.7 @ 113, 718C 300HP 1/4 mile 12.4 @ 113)

The 981 was not a visceral driving experience for me (no offence meant to any 981 owners) and I have driven both the Box and Cayman versions . I found it larger in size and quite refined. It doesn't provide the kind of feedback I get from the 987.1.

Just picked up my 987.2 Spyder about 3 months ago, there is already a noticeable improvement in refinement (clutch and gear shifts are as light as a feather) but due to the removal of sound dampening materials to lighten weight, lowered and stiffer suspension (Capercat complained saying that it was too harsh for him), and lack of a roof, the "problem" isn't so bad, I can still live with it. My 987.1 is still more raw in comparison.

I'm sure the 718 will wipe the floor of the 981s and 987s in terms of performance, but whether it is visceral driving experience remains to be seen. I'll let you know when I test drive one.

Most car companies are making their cars with more refinement, Porsche isn't the only one. e.g. The Golf GTI versions after the MkV are no longer as fun to drive, VW having to pipe in artificial exhaust sounds into the cabin with a sound device in the later models. Sad really. That is why I haven't found a suitable replacement for my MkV GTI and I probably never will as the car companies are no longer making these type of cars.

The only exception of late is the Alfa 4C. That car is drivers car inspite of it's dual clutch transmission.

 

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Admit what? I don't need to justify to you the reasons why and how I spend my money...

Now that you mentioned it, the thought of the 718S raping the 981S by 16 seconds on the Nurburgring does make my juices flow :dance:

Now what's not to like about it?, it's lightning fast, 911 brakes, 911TT VGT, GT4 rear suspension, 911TT steering rack etc.. and IMO sounds great as confirmed last weekend. Apparently cheaper in price than the one it replaces haha win win!!

And I have said many times, buy what you want, don't justify the purchase. Don't criticise the 718 to me for months then do a 180 turn in opinion.

And I don't see how the ability to rape a 981S is going to do you any good because as long as I have known you, you have never tracked any of your cars (even after repeated offers from me), so it is only going to be specs on paper. And by your own admission the other day, your future 718GTS will be a garage queen.

 

[triode12]

I guess everyone has a different view of visceral - I see the 981 and 718 as having Jekyll and Hyde personalities, they can be benign or raucous depending on your configuration. I can assure you, when I put my GTS round a track without the nanny aids its a genuine visceral experience, loud, raucous, supremely adjustable and very accurate. Conversely when I drive to the office its a GT cruiser. The 718/981 can accomplish this because they have a sophisticated, build blending all sorts of high and ultra high tensile steel with aluminium to deliver a car with massive torsional rigidity and relatively low mass. From this all else flows in harmony.

I'm not sure I can come at a street spec GTI as a fun car but then again the only decent front wheel drive turbo I have driven is the Megane RS275. By the same token my background colours my views, having had a long list of EVOs and STIs (including multiple Targa entries) - these are the epitome of visceral as you can throw any conditions at them and they deliver in spades.

In terms of the 4C, the track spec pack car is simply brutal on a public road - in my view terrible suspension set up for what is mainly a road car (plus low capacity turbo charged engine), likewise the M4GTS.

Any car will be fun to drive at the track but it is about having fun every time you drive the car. Newer cars are being built so insulated from the elements that it is like driving in a tomb. I don't want my cars to be benign at all. My Pirelli GTI has stiffened roll bars, WALK and a Stg 1 tune to take out the huge lag (K04 snail) under 2K. And it is not about going fast, what with speed limits the way they are over here. You will never be able to exploit the limits of these new cars on the public roads - not without risking your licence. If I had my way, I'd own something like the new Morgan Three-wheeler (or Ariel atom) but at $90K (over 100K drive away) for the Aust delivered version of the Morgan and much more for the Ariel, no thanks.

My friends recently restored 64 Beetle with a swapped 1600 engine is a barrel of laughs and I wasn't even driving. It feels like we are travelling at 100km/hr when we are only going 60km/hr. To give you an example of what I am trying to say.

The EVO X I tested a couple of years back was nice, stiff and a point and go chariot. Never liked the Subies.

The 4C is very fast (0-100 in 4.5secs) for what it is and it has the nimbleness and size that many newer cars lack at only 950kg (apart from the Lotuses) Not the most practical of cars to own - less practical than even a Box/Cay.

 

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What you saw is common. Dealers here will always have multiple 911s, for the most part, up front. Go to PCA event at a dealer, and the owners are crawling over the 911s. Caymans and Boxsters are not as prevalent in showrooms. This is not an accident, they just don't sell as well and dealers have only so much floor space.

But in real life, its the Macans and Cayennes getting sold. In this way the 911 acts as Halo car similar to how Corvette were Chevy Halo car. Dad goes in to see the Corvette and drives off in an Impala. Dad goes in to see the 911 and drives home in a Macan or Cayenne.

I saw this the other day. Sometimes I forget not everyone is at a dealer interested in what I care about but something totally different, like a hybrid Cayenne or a base Macan.

Was in my local dealer this morning. There was only one new 718 Cayman in the showroom (and another used 981 Boxster), the rest were 911s, Macans and Cayennes - a very nice presold 911R was one of them (most were GT3s).

 

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Yes, it is. Its Huggeeee, not joking. Except for one thing. Nissan built the GTR to take down the 911 Turbo on the Ring. And succeeded, and few care. What if you built the best car ever and no one cared? See DeMuro

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why no car will ever take down the Porsche 911 as the reigning sports car king. It's the same reason why the Corvette ZR1 and Nissan GT-R didn't put a dent in supercar sales, even though every single magazine on earth told us the 'Vette and the Nissan were faster, and handled better, and had more features, and cost less, and were generally the finest man-made creations since the moon lander.

Faster doesn't mean better. There are always faster cars out there.



If you wait and chase technology, you will loose. You cannot catch it. There is alway something else on the horizon. Its like the guy who never bought a TV because color is coming out or HDTV or 4K. There is always something better out there.

at the end of the day one is better than the other.

And some will say that is the 981. And some will say its a 944 Turbo. And some will say its ... you can fill in the blank. "Faster" does not always mean better. If that were the case, nobody would pay $2M for Hemi Cuda Convertible or $35M for a Ferrari 250GT. Your 987 could probably wipe the track against both those million dollar cars.

Yup it is like those MAMILS who ride ultra light carbon fibre bikes worth thousands of dollars (to save a few grams of weight) believing that this will make them as fast as riders in tDF, when they could save the same amount of weight by just having a poop just before a ride. It is all about bragging rights or d*ck posturing. Sad really.

 

[triode12]

Anyway, getting back on track.
Apologies if this has been posted before but I'll post it anyway.

Porsche 718 Cayman review - does fewer cylinders mean less fun? - EVO MagazineEVO Magazine

 

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Another luke warm review of the car also lamenting the loss of the 6 cylinder engine. This time from Autoblog in the Netherlands.

https://youtu.be/3wdiRhme3NE

 

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Multiple Porsche 911 and Porsche 987 owner giving reasons why he won't be buying a 718.

https://youtu.be/CKvMwsyhCnc

Skip to 10:17 secs if you don't want to go through the whole video.

 

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Well.. at least the ones with flat 6s don't catch on fire like the GT3 and Ferrari 458 ....just saying...

Memphis woman's 2017 Porsche bursts into flames while she's insi - WMC Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee

https://www.truedelta.com/Porsche-718-Boxster-recalls-1386,2017

 

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New Australian EVO review of the 718.

https://www.evomagazine.com.au/porsche-718-boxster-review/

"Dynamically, few if any rivals can hold a candle to the Boxster in either basic or S form, with the Lotus Elise Sport 220 offering a more visceral experience, but compromising everyday driveability. The Alfa Romeo 4C has the visual drama to shame both the Porsche and Lotus, but is even more difficult to live with and doesn’t offer anything like the driving capability. Given that they have always played second fiddle to the Porsche, Audi’s TTS and TT RS models are perhaps the closest to knocking the Boxster off its class-leading perch. The TT RS offers a more cohesive and charismatic drivetrain than the Boxster S, is significantly faster, and barely lags behind for dynamic agility."

 

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An owner of both a 987 BS and 718 BS compares the two.

https://youtu.be/fn9D5mrjQmE