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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

That AutoZine article was fantastic, and also highlighted my concerns about the engine's long term durability.

It shouldn't be a surprise when there are concerns about the durability of small engines which produce high HP because of turbocharging. Porsche better hope that their new buyers are uninformed, and won't have any idea of how many cylinders produce the high HP and of course how that power is produced.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Nice! I think I would be ok with that choice too personally though I can't get over how shoddy the build quality is even on a Z06! Walked away and straight in to the arms of a Spyder!

I never drove a Z06, but I've driven a C7 Z51 on many occasions and it's an awesome performance car. As far as build quality is concerned, it certainly is an improvement over the C6 and should satisfy most car buyers. The C7 Z51 is quite competitive in performance with a 991S which stickers for nearly double the price of a C7. Moreover, don't be mislead by 0-60 times published in magazines for a 981S and C7. A 981S with PDK using launch control has a competitive time with a C7 Z51, but from a roll the C7 will blow away any 981 model. The 465 lb-ft of torque on a C7 gives you tremendous acceleration through the rev range.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

This is one of the reasons few people shart on the 911 Turbo or GT2. Sure, they're turbo motors, but they're so damn powerful that we accept the exchange. Though for years, automotive journalists and owners alike have been dismayed at the 911 Turbo's lack of driving character compared to similarly priced vehicles and its younger brother, the GT3.

Actually I believe the primary reason is that not many people have $200K - $300K for a car, especially one that is a two seater.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Probably, but even on popular forums like 6speedonline, there's universal praise for the cars seen as the pinnacle of the Porsche tree of offerings. Never driven a Turbo. Have you?

My neighbor has a 991 Turbo S which I have driven several times on the street, and one time on the track. If sheer acceleration is what at the top of anyone's wish list, then the Turbo S is the right choice. In my case I gravitate more to the GT3, but settle for the 981S. I just can't justify the $150K expenditure for a GT3 since I'm fortunate to have a couple of track days a year. Not to be critical of anyone's selection, but a GT3 which is driven only on the street is a waste of money unless the owner has a complete disregard for posted speed limits.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I guess you don't get it. I wrote:

How many reviews of any Porsche have you read? 200? 500? 50? Just curious. In a previous post you didn't know what Excellence was so I'll guess not that many. ...Go find and read Porsche reviews in the last 30 years and find some bad ones.

Here's the answer. You will find auto journalists bashing the company, their hedge fund antics, their management, the activities of the 90s, their introduction of water cooled cars, but at the introduction of a car, you will be hard pressed to find any saying anything bad about the car itself. Its one thing to criticize the management, the price of options, etc, and another to bash the car itself. Google for yourself. There are bound to be reviews going back to the 1970s.

These reviews are bad. Read between the lines. They are slamming the car. Go find ONE such article about the 987 or 981. Just one. And its the MOST important attribute of the engine ... the heart of the car. None of the rest matters. Put this in context of ALL Porsche reviews. In general, nobody says anything bad about the cars themselves ... until now.

A new thread was just posted on this forum comparing the new Porsche Turbo S vs the Jag F type. I watched the clip even though the result wasn't surprising. After the clip ended another clip appeared showcasing the 718S on a dragstrip. It was about the most pathetic sounding clip that I have ever heard of a car being pushed to the red line. Granted that we all have our priorities, but after hearing that clip I have absolutely no interest in the 718. It's a nice looking car, but it just doesn't sound like a sports car.

 

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If sport-cars were just priced by the number of cylinders then yeah...but how about track-performance, acceleration etc.? The 718 beats the 981 in EVERY performance aspect and not by small margins.
I would think that there are sports car buyers out there that value performance over # of cylinders.

We shall see. The gist of the article that Chow cited was the following: Will enough customers accept a turbocharged four-cylinder Boxster that retails for over 5 percent more than what they paid for a six-cylinder version in the past?

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I'd like to understand if it is typical this early in a new model launch for there to already be used 718s for sale? Even a few CPO 718s.

Is that to be expected?


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One thing for certain. Some people paid a huge premium for their bad choice. Just anecdotal, but I didn't see any used 981s until a year after launch.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Sigh

Proof the New Porsche 718 Boxster Sounds Exactly Like a Subaru

Porsche sounds like Subaru

"Everything from the STI to the Forester has a flat-four power plant, and now, so does Porsche's entry level sports car.

The distinct Subaru sound is something car enthusiasts recognize instantly, which is why this video so fantastically encapsulates why many in the community are saying the new 718 Boxster sounds like a WRX."

I was jogging a couple of days ago, and I saw and heard my first 718 on a country road not far from my house. To be fair the 718 was just cruising, but the most charitable word that I could use to describe its exhaust note is "disappointing". I'm not too familiar with with a Subaru's exhaust note sounds like so I can't say that it sounds like one, but I sure as hell can say that it doesn't sound like any other Porsche that I've ever heard over the years.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

So the Subaru sounds good also, huh?

The Subaru sounds just about what you would expect to hear from a $25K car. It certainly is a step up from a $16K Toyota Corolla. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but is it too much to ask for an $80K car to have a more refined sporty sound?

 

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Ok, enjoy your experience in your 981s and let folks who get their 718s enjoy their experience in their 718s. Folks can just complain and whine about the sound until they are blue in the face. When it is all said and done the 718 will outsell the 981s given the same time frame. The future is now.

After reading the posts in this thread, I get the impression that some think that 981 owners are bashing 718 buyers. I would doubt that any posters who are disappointed in the 718's exhaust sound mean to imply that anyone who buys a 718 is making a mistake. We understand that exhaust sound is not of primary importance to everyone. To many of us however, a sport car's exhaust sound is a very important part of the pleasure we get from driving our cars, and we are merely expressing our frustration at Porsche for their decision to go with a 4 cyl turbo charged engine.

Bottom line is that this issue has been beaten to death, but I just wanted to point out that my disappointment with the 718 doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the 718 and what it has to offer. It's a super car in most respects and I expect that the vast majority of 718 owners will be delighted with their purchase.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

That's not the case with the 718. Other than some minor updates to front and rear, it mostly appears to be the same and there is no perceived risk of owning an "outdated" 981.

Moreover many buyers may prefer a NA over a 4 cyl turbo. It will be interesting to watch the first year's sales numbers for the 718.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Believe me — it was difficult enough to find space for the flat-four and for the related extra intake and exhaust plumbing, not to mention the complex intercooler assembly. For these reasons alone, the six was never on our radar.

OK let's grant the point that it would be difficult, but when I pay $80K+ for a car I expect them to have enough of a budget to overcome challenges.

Marketing wanted to move the mid-engined twins further away from the rear-engined 911

Now I can buy this one. It's hard to justify a $30K+ premium for a 911 when it has the same engine as a detuned 981S, especially when the buyer prefers the mid-engined option.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

EU emissions cycle



I appreciate the comparison.

Your comment here is indicative of the age old low end torque vs high winding sports car argument. As a turbo, you described, essentially, and old fashioned muscle car, vice say a solid lifter high winding road course car. This is one of the thing younger people who know nothing but turbos would find familiar.

OTH, it is exactly the reason why traditional NA sports car buyers do not like the lack of the high end wail.

So I think you capture the difference well - modern turbo vs traditional high winding sports car. I guess there is no choice anymore.

It's been about 15 years since I last drove a turbo car, but there is another significant difference between NA and turbo engines and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it. Turbocharged engines do not like heat. The car that I was driving performed very well for the first few laps, but there was a noticeable power degradation thereafter. Granted that not everyone tracks their car, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same effect wouldn't be experienced on the street when the car is driven enthusiastically, especially when the ambient temperature gets in the 90 degree range.

 

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No cars like heat. Frankly I found my NA cars suffered more from heat power drain than any of my turbo cars.

I have no idea why a NA engine's performance would suffer when it gets hot. Maybe in the past when there were carburetors, but not with fuel injection.

The objective of a turbocharger is to increase the density of the air inside each cylinder of the engine. By compressing the air, more oxygen enters each cylinder, and proportionally more fuel can also enter each cylinder, meaning that more power is generated with each explosion inside the cylinders.

As air temperature increases, the density of the air, and the amount of oxygen it holds decreases. This means that the turbocharger has to work harder, spin faster and compress more air to produce the same amount of boost it would at lower temperatures.

As the temperatures inside the turbocharger gets higher, the turbocharger can no longer increase it’s speed efficiently, meaning the effect of this is that engine performance, acceleration and top speed are also reduced.

In addition, hotter air also has a secondary affect on the turbocharger, by naturally increasing the operating temperature inside the turbo. Usually, the intercooler works to cool the air from the hot air intake, but in warmer temperatures, the intercooler becomes less efficient, as it is also exposed to the warmer temperatures.

Again, this serves to increase the amount of work the turbo has to do, reducing the overall efficiency and performance of the engine.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Really? Pretty sure you explained it yourself in this same post:



This physical property holds for NA engines as well as turbos; the big difference is that without a turbo or blower, an NA engine can't do anything about it.



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The effect of heat on modern NA engines is marginal. The ECU constantly monitors a variety of conditions, one of them being temperature, and the fuel mixture is changed accordingly. That's why I referenced carburetors when that didn't happen, and performance suffered.

Of course the effects of heat on turbos can be offset in a variety of ways, but I was referencing a typical turbo setup. High performance cars like the Porsche Turbo have large turbochargers, very efficient intercoolers, and cold air intakes to ensure that colder, denser air is brought into the turbocharger. All of this is expensive and that is one of the reasons why the Porsche Turbo costs so much.

 

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I agree but will add #1 to that list. These are descriptions of appliances, not an engaging sports car. At least I would never buy a car based upon #1, 5 - 15. 2,3, and 4, are, of course, more attuned to what a sports car is supposed to do. For my washing machine, I might care about maps, but not in a sports cars. But thats just me. It amazes me, in a way, anyone cares about maps these days since WAZE does everything and its FREE.

Its sad in a way but hey, its all thats available. It is what it is. New buyers have no other choice.

I expect that this may be a generational thing. I agree with you 100%, and I must admit that I'm amazed that many sports car buyers are unhappy because their Porsche doesn't have all of the gadgets which are standard on a $25K Chevy Malibu. It appears that the gadget mania is the wave of the future, so Porsche has no option other than to attend to the wants of the new market.
In their initial 911 model, there was no car on the road that was as spartan as the 911, and Porsche owners took delight in having such a spartan car. We felt that if you wanted the gadgets, you should buy a Cadillac or Lincoln or MB. It appears that this attitude is no longer the case, based on the attitudes of many forum posters.

 

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As an afterthought it's clear Porsche 'cheaped' out on the 718. They didn't do this on the 991.2, still a six cylinder engine and you can add all the fruit such as dynamic chassis control and rear axle steering. Something not offered on the 718.

The 718 is clearly at a disadvantage now relative to the 991 - whereas the 981 clearly blurred the line

Porsche made a mistake offering a 981S, which has the same engine as 991, for nearly $25K less than the 991. When asked why the 991.2 costs $25K more than the 718S, the SA can now truthfully reply that the 718 only has a 4 cyl engine. The 718 Boxster S has been knocked down a couple pegs with respect to the 991.

 

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Depends on what 'knocked down' means for people because with the 718 S Porsche now offers the exact same 0-60 times for the Cayman S as for the base 911...Porsche numbers are the same for both cars: 4.4 / 4.2 / 4.0 sec (manual, PDK, PDK with sport chrono) and if I remember correctly during a car magazine test both cars were within 0.1 sec...the times were around 3.6 sec.

I don't see that as 'knocked down'.

So you are a 0-60 guy, and that's fine. 0 - 60 is virtually meaningless to me since I will never take my Porsche to a dragstrip. Now going from a 6 cylinder engine which was the same engine used in the far more expensive 911 to a 4 cylinder engine is a big deal to me, and certainly qualifies as being knocked down a couple pegs in my book.

 

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For those that don't understand why the demise of the flat 6 is so important, you probably had to live through the 914/924/944/968 years - the rise and fall of these 4 cyl cars, including the 944 Turbo, which was faster than the same year 911 Carrera. And the 944 sales BURIED 911 sales at a much cheaper price. And yet now they are all gone, a footnote in history, some cars doing club racing, but for the most part gone, while the 911s have become collectible.

And then came the flat 6 986. Some info

1997 USA Today, April 8, 1997

"The wheels were back in motion at the company founded by the now-deceased Dr. Ferdinand Porsche ... and his passion for the rear-engined, air-cooled, six-cylinder sports car. Wiedeking made clear that the firm would stick to those roots. ... Enter the Boxster."

Read that carefully. The CEO made it clear they would drop the 4 cyl cars and go back to what made them - flat 6 engines.

Yuppie Sports, Part 2: The Porsche 944 and 968 - Ate Up With Motor

You can read that article for itself and I'm sure find more. The bottom line is that when PAG was dying, as they brought the Japanese in to teach them how to build cars, they essentially said - no more 4 cyl. Back to roots - 6 cyl. I guess that didn't work out. So yeah, to some its a big deal and it doesn't matter one bit if the new cars do a 5:90 Ring time or 0 - 60 in 0.2 seconds. They will always be 4 cyl cars and not a real Porsche (to some).

Couldn't agree more. The obsession with 0-60 times really amaze me. I've owned 911s for over 40 years, have clocked well over 300K miles on them, and I have never ever done a timed 0 - 60. Maybe some are obsessed with these times for bragging rights.

 

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I, for example, have repeatedly predict 718 sales would remain equal to 981 sales simply because young, new buyers know nothing but turbos and have nothing to compare it to. They have no idea of high revving sports cars, only low end torque, much like muscle cars. When the prices came out, that had to be a shock to many. Not only 4 cyl, but a lot more money. Maybe my prediction was wrong. I guess we will see over the months.

There is no choice. You either buy this car or buy a 911 to get a flat 6. The sales will tell the picture.

The question is how many 718 buyers will come from the ranks of 986, 987, and 981 owners. I have no idea what Porsche anticipated, but I do know that they went to considerable expense to mail out an expensive 718 book to 981 owners. So Porsche must have been counting on a significant percentage of 981 owners to trade-in their 981s for 718s.

The choice that 981 owners have is to retain their cars. There are many Porsche owners like me who will never consider paying $75K+ for a 4 cyl engine. So we simply keep our current cars for a very long time. Not good for the economy, but great for our pocket books.