[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Porsche just seems absolutely determined to clip the Cayman's wings to make moving to a 911 the (obvious) choice.

Seriously, it had to be more expensive to create an all new engine than to allow the Cayman to share an engine with the 911s.

What we want is a Cayman like the GT4. What Porsche wants is to force us to buy 911s.

I agree with the sentiment, however to be fair, Porsche did give the Cayman the 911 engine e.g. the 3.4l as found in the 981S and GTS and the 3.8l as found in the Spyder and GT4 (allbeit with a small number of different parts and what amounts to different states of tune).

I think what Porsche have missed is the simple fact there are a number (possibly many) 981 owners that would buy a 981 for the same amount of money in preference to a 911 if the engines were the same (or at least very similar).

There are probably many people, like myself, that see the 911 as overly large, overly heavy with a horror story of an interior e.g. giant parcel shelf as a dash board, cluttered instrument cluster and useless back seats (unless you're called snow white and your family members are named sneezy, bashful, dopey, grumpy and happy etc) and thus prefer the simplicity and elegance of the 981 design.

On another point, at least in Australia, the Porsche "entry" level cars are the Cayenne and Macan with the advertising tag line of "The short cut to your dreams" - squarely aimed at those that need a badge to feel whole.

Anyhow, back to the article, the fact that EVO excoriated Porsche for the 718 is very telling. I will be attending the 718 unveiling over here in OZ and will provide some honest feedback (as others have done).

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

FWIW I think we will not have to endure turbo 4-cylinders for long. The combustion thing is probably going bust soon.

I don't quite understand why they do not already make a 981/718 equivalent to the Tesla Roadster. They could even sacrifice a trunk for more battery. People would have a blast with that one.

Because a 2.2 tonne car is not a sports car - thats why

Because a 2.2 tonne car with batteries can't complete a track session - thats why

Because people want a trunk/frunk

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

FWIW, the Tesla Roadster is only just over 2700 lbs, and it actually has a nice and low center of gravity.

You can get the X, S and 3 in Australia. I was thinking of the S P85/90, "the best performance models" and in Australian spec the P85D has a kerb weight of 2187kg or 4,811lbs :hilarious: (similar to but less than the P90).

In the world of EVs, you can have a small light car with limited range (and at best good performance for a very limited period of time) or giant heavyweight with a modicum of range (again, at best good performance for a very limited period of time) - neither are sports cars - its a simple matter of physics, engineering and energy density (which is controlled by chemical physics - not spin).

Colin Chapman nailed the recipe years ago - performance (handling, braking, acceleration, top speed, reliability, durability, endurance) + lightweight = sports car.

Here's a simple fact - for a Tesla model S to accelerate to the same speed as a Cayman requires ~ 1.65 times more energy than the Cayman. Likewise the KE at a given velocity has to be dissipated as a vehicle slows under brakes - generating heat/moderated by regenerative braking to a degree (the Cayman also has regenerative braking). A heavyweight monster like a P85/90 has a lot of energy to dissipate and so the cycle goes around.

From a personal perspective, I'd take a 718S before anything made by Tesla

Duder13 (and I'm not trying to have a go at you ), I fully appreciate why people may like the idea of a "Tesla" or specifically the roadster - the fact remains it doesn't stand up to scutiny hence the "luxo" barges and to be frank I simply can't stomach the marketing, spin and disinformation put out by various parties.

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

Yep - a flat torque "curve" - produces linear acceleration - thats what the HP equation defines e.g. constant rate of change in HP where the torque "curve" is flat (as long as the ECU map allows for linear throttle response inputs )

and, in reality, a cars engine (and often the character of the car itself) is defined by its torque curve - a Porsche NA engine, like a beautiful woman, has a series of wonderfully sculptured curves. In the case of the NA Porsches, these curves are defined by torque and rpm, reflecting sublime engineering e.g. as the engine comes on cam.

The strong pull to the redline delivered by Porsche NA engines is a direct function of the relatively slow drop off in torque at high rpm. A marked contrast to turbo charged engines which have very rapid drop offs in torque at moderate to high rpm

In the case of modern torque curves or rather "lines" as produced by modern DFI turbocharged engines - the torque "lines" are defined (or rather controlled) by the ECU (which controls boost etc), which in turn might as well be defined by the IT dept. :beerand in many cases is, with suitable engineering inputs)

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Just because the tech trickles down doesn't necessarily mean 981/718 owners will trade up to a 911. There's simply too much of a price difference. If you have data to the contrary, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

This is moot however, as MidengineFan made no mention of trading up. He asserted that Porsche made the car so that people will buy a 911 "instead". This is what I keep reading here.


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I don't think thats the case, I think people will trade up when they feel they are getting what they want and what they need out of a 911. My personal feeling was the 991.1 was underdone in terms of both performance and handling. Thus, for me personally, a 981 GTS was a far better proposition than a 911.1 C2 or C2S. I also didn't want a "race car" for the road e.g. GT3/GT4).

Now, my opinion changed on this matter with the introduction of 991.2 it has much improved performance, feel and handling. This decision was not about mid Vs rear given that a Cayman has a weight distribution of ~ 45/55 (keep in mind a Mclaren has a 42/58 weight distribution which is about the same as the 458 Italia, the world beating 917 was 36/64) and the 991 has a weight distribution ~40/60 or cost - it was about getting the right balance between overall performance and cost.

I'm happy to have both (981 GTS and 991.2 C2S).

My gut feel is a lot of Boxman owners will see (and feel) the 991 is much improved in .2 guise and take the plunge. No matter which way you cut and dice it, the 718/ 718S (despite its improved performance and handling) is missing something, you cant disguise the firing order of a four cylinder engine or the sound that it makes - its very weird, you look at a 718, it fires up and you expect a certain sound and you get something unexpected (at least that was my reaction). To those that want the full six cylinder experience, the 718 is a non-starter and they may well look to the 911.2 as it still delivers the full Porsche sports car experience in a much improved package.

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

OK, but I think you missed the point a bit. I didn't trade my 981 for a 718 and I did buy a 991.2 C2S and others are skipping the 718 and heading for the 991.2 (first hand from my SA who is very happy with this outcome for obvious reasons).

I am actually proof that this is really happening even more so as I already own a turbo flat 4 (see my signature) which I am very happy with

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I believe Porsche have been very smart - they have drawn a clear line in the sand. There is no need to rationalise anything really.

On the the one hand you have a clear cut entry level vehicle with 4 cyls and and a high level of performance on the other hand you have a higher entry point vehicle (on a like for like basis e.g. base Vs base, S Vs S) with significantly more performance, six cyls and 4 seats.

It has become a straight forward case of pay to play if you want more performance you have to pay for it, even then your choices are limited in the case of the 718 e.g. you cant get PTV-E, dynamic chassis control or rear axle steering. So Chow is correct about the trickle down effect.

So I think it has become simple.

 

[RandR]

I just read my copy of EVO magazine and it contained a good review of the Cayman S. It should be noted the rating was downgraded from 5 stars to a lower level because of the engine sound and THE less responsive engine.

As I have pointed out before the 981 GTS is within 0.1s of the 718s in the 80 to 120kmh test - yet the new car lacks the responsiveness and sound of the GTS. In the real world the new car has given up a lot and gained little - a very different proposition to 991.2 which gave up little and gained lots.

 

[RandR]

As an afterthought it's clear Porsche 'cheaped' out on the 718. They didn't do this on the 991.2, still a six cylinder engine and you can add all the fruit such as dynamic chassis control and rear axle steering. Something not offered on the 718.

The 718 is clearly at a disadvantage now relative to the 991 - whereas the 981 clearly blurred the line

 

[RandR]

So, 718 sales down ~ 40% relative to 981 sales and 911.2 sales down 20% relative to 991.1 sales.

Not surprising, I am a member of three different physical "car clubs" over here in Oz - Within this group, I haven't been able to find a single person who would stump up the cash for a 4 cyl Porsche sports car (note the price point for a Porsche in Australia is double that found in the USA). It is literally this simple, affluent middle aged men (largely) do not want to pay 150k for a 4cyl sports car when they can afford a better 6 cylinder car e.g. 911.

I have absolutely no doubt the 718 is a great performer, however I suspect its days may be numbered unless sales pick up over the next year or so.

 

[RandR]

I posted this thread a few weeks ago and thought I would update it for those that might not have read the original one. I have had my 718 for about 4 weeks and still had my 2014 981 for the first two weeks I owned the 718. People are saying the only thing that isbetter on the 718 is performance. Well I have to adamantly disagree with that. I think the 718 is better in almost every way. I drove both a few times after I received my 718 and every time I was in the 981 I couldn’t wait to park it and get into the 718. Some of you made comments that why spend money on getting a new car that only gave you a little more acceleration. I like a lot of creature comforts on acar. Here are the new options I got on the 718 that I could not get on my 2014 981. Keyless entry and start, backup camera, adaptive cruise control, blindside protection, and ventilated seats. So I got a lot more than acceleration, yes it cost me a lot of money but I wanted them on my 981 and couldn’t get them. Here are some of the differences that I observed. In the low RPM ranges the 718 seemed to be waiting to accelerate. Just giving it a little gas made it jump andt he acceleration is great. I enjoyed the sound in the low RPM range just as much as the 981. If you have the sport mode on, it really sounds good at low RPM’s Above 5000RPM, the 981 did sound better but around town the 718 was great. With the top down, the 718 seemed to be louder and sounded better than the 981.
1. The base 718 now has the 981S brakes because of the greater acceleration.
2. Suspension has been upgraded
3. Steering response is quicker and you seem to have more control
4. Voice connect seems to understand me better than my 2016 Macan
5. You can mix FM and AM stations on the favorites page on the radio so you don’t have to change bands to switch between your favorite AM and FM stations
6. Nav database is much larger and it is easier toenter new waypoints.
7. You can start and stop the nav guidance from the map page
8. The next turn guidance displays better and there are a few more functions available
9. The blindspot warning indicators are more visible and get your attention better than onmy 2016 Macan. They work at a much lowerspeed than on the Macan. It is a lot more useful in slow stop and go traffic.
10. The adaptive cruise controlis much better than on the Macan. The Macan is very rough, doesn’t slow down until the last minute and you are ready to start slowing yourself before it does. The Macan will shift down 2 gears and rev up to 5000 RPM if you change from a slow traffic lane to an open lane.
11.The 718 slows sooner when traffic slows and accelerates smoother. If you change to an open lane it will shift down 1 gear but with all its torque you really accelerate without increasing your RPM that much.
12.If you engage the sport mode you will be in the turbo range most of the time so there is no turbo lag. Of course economy goes down. But why do you own a sports car unless you enjoy it every way you can.
13.In my normal driving around San Diego, I am getting about the same mileage as on my 981 but I can’t resist pushing it every time I get a chance. On a 60 mile trip through the hills and winding roads from San Diego to Julien Igot 29 MPG. Yesterday I drove 25 miles on the freeway at 70 MPH and it recorded 33.9 MPG
14.When I made a max turn at slow speeds the 981 felt like it was jumping sideways and really made me feel anxious. The 718 turns smoothly and has a shorter turn radius.
15.I really liked my 981 but the 718 is just so much more fun to drive. I can’t think of anything that I liked better on the 981 than the 718 except on the 718 the engine cutoff when you stop is the default position and if you shut it off, the next time you start the car it is on again. The dealer said you can’t have the option to have it turned off all the time. They did that to help make the car more environment friendly. So the motor is the only difference between the two.
16.It seems like most of the posts on the 718 board are 981 owners that are trying to justify why they would not want to buy the 718. I thought about putting this post on their board but they might put out a contract on me. HaHa. We can all buy what we want and should be happy that we are fortunate enough to own any Porsche so don’t rain on the parade of those of us that own the 718.

I don't think anyone is trying justify anything, or rain on anyones parade. :hilarious:.

The truth is clear, the throttle response in something like a 981GTS is better than that in the 718S and the sound response is in a different league. I didn't realise you needed bigger brakes due to the acceleration - guess why? you don't. You need bigger brakes if you car is heavier ke=1/2mv^2 e.g you have to dissipate more heat. Tires are the primary reason why a car stops well.

PCM, get a Hyundai........steering feel, negligible, honestly it is...........

The 718 is great for a four banger, it should be at its price point. The reality is people that want a six banger will buy a 911 and those that want something other than the badge buy the M2.

The market has spoken.

 

[RandR]

Re: Turbo's ain't what they used to be

You should try a 488 - you might reconsider

 

[RandR]

Re: Turbo's ain't what they used to be

Interesting direction....

what do these metrics tell the educated buyer

1) 0 - 60, ability to put power down and traction management - note traction management is so sophisticated now that RWD cars can compete with AWD from a dig
2) 1/4mile and trap - average power developed from the torque curve relative to weight
3) Fig8/pan peak gs and average lateral gs - what a car can pull and how consistent is it whilst doing this, a proxy for handling (friction circle)

All in all useful information if you approach it in the right way.

Does this really sell cars? well, I can tell you this I watched the worlds greatest drag race 6 and then watched the hot lap the 991.2 S did - went and test drove one and was blown away (no pun intended)

Why so?
0-60mph - 3.1s - I have driven some seriously fast cars in my time and this gets off the line like a super car
1/4mile 11.5 @ 121 - huge average power under the torque curve, pulls like a train
Fig8 - 23.1s @ 1.05g - handles as well (if not better) than a 981 GT4/ 981 GTS

So the numbers encouraged me to take a test drive and ultimately order a .2S (whereas I found the 991.1 very under done hence the 981 GTS)

Thus to conclude, the numbers probably matter to those that understand what they mean and they may entice you into trying something you may not have intended to look at

 

[RandR]

Re: Turbo's ain't what they used to be

One item that you neglected to mention in your post is gearing. Since car manufacturers know that 0-60 times sell cars, some will equip their cars with tall gears that will enable the car to reach 60 MPH without a gear shift. With a MT car you decreased the 0-60 time by around three tenths of a second. The Camaro ZL1 for example can reach 60 MPH in 1st gear. This certainly helped it to achieve a 3.5 sec 0-60.

Yes, lots of shenanigans these days e.g use of near track tires as an option (e.g. Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires) and then providing cars fitted with the optional tires to the various testing groups. All is fair in love and war A well informed buyer will (hopefully) be able to see through the trickery.

There seems little point (at least to me) to pit track ready variants against road going variants - to me its the performance of the road going variants that matter, given thats what we drive, in the main.

 

[RandR]

Re: Turbo's ain't what they used to be

The Cayman, in the near future will cease to run ,for lack of sales, as a result of the 4 cylinder change. Yes it is a constant election , and voters (consumers) vote with their money.

Cheers

I hope thats not the case, it is a very good vehicle. By the same token I fully understand that those used to a flat six will have difficulty with the engine character. I own a VA STI as well as a 981 GTS and the firing order on the 718 can't be disguised - its very weird you drive it, and at least for me, it feels like a Porsche with a Subaru engine - I suspect the headers maybe slightly unequal in length as well. Honestly tho, the car is very very good and I suspect many will grow to love it.

BTW the developmental RSR appears to be both turbocharged and mid-engined (6 cyl)

 

[RandR]

Re: Turbo's ain't what they used to be

"BTW the developmental RSR appears to be both turbocharged and mid-engined (6 cyl) "

Very interesting,thanks for the info.

Chris Harris Drives: the Porsche 718 Boxster | Top Gear

BTW, I agree with his final conclusion. Last Sentence.

Cheers

Ouch, that was brutal - as effective as the 718S is, its certainly lost something. Its such a shame, because the car is brilliant in most respects. What is also interesting is the 991.2C2S or base still sound like flat sixes - because the firing order is still the same (allbeit slightly muffled).

 

[RandR]

Re: Worst 718 Review?pro

In addition to this, it's also necessary to point out that while some very vocal people complained about the 996, Porsche could, and did, ignore the whiners. The 996 sold very well. Significantly better than the outgoing 993s.

The 718 seems to be laying an egg. I have posted my own theories as to why, but... my theories are confounded to some extent by the fact that the 991.2 is also laying an egg. If anything, the early sales figures indicate that the 718 is being better received than the 991.2.

I have no use for the 718 except maybe as a rental car, but I was on record as being bullish on the 991.2. It seems like an awesome car that brings some genuine value to the table without sacrificing much of the 991.1's appeal. I'll admit I'm confused.

One thing I do think is clear is that it's time for Porsche to knock it off with the price increases already. If they are deliberately trying to kill their sports cars, they're doing a good job of it.

As far as the lack of Cayman sales holding the 718 figures down, the same thing would have been true for the 981, because the 981 Cayman was also a latecomer. Right now we can compare 981 Boxster sales to 718 Boxster sales, and the 981 is indisputably on top. There was substantial pent-up demand for the 981, while there was evidently none for the 718.

I suspect there are a number of issues at play - but I can say this, I am having to wait the best part of 9 months to get my hands on my 991.2 S in the Australian market (and Noah as you have said - its exceptional and I don't say this lightly).

 

[RandR]

Guys this is getting silly

(1) the two biggest GHG emitters are China (~10BtCO2) and the USA (~6BtCO2)
(2) Speak to a geologist - there have been much hotter periods in earth history
(3) the earth does appear to be getting warmer
(4) this could be caused by a number of factors including (1)
(5) if the earth is getting warmer then mitigation and time frames need an honest discussion
(6) Most people a largely ill educated in terms of earth history, climate and weather
(7) There is a huge propaganda industry out there that exists for a variety of political reasons
(8) The earth will outlive humankind by billions of years - life forms come and go
(9) The earth is 4.5 billion years old
(10) If you believe GHG are important to various climate conditions the US and China needs to get their respective houses in order
(11) If you believe GHG are important then a realistic debate about nuclear power needs to be had
(12) Lets talk about the 718

 

[RandR]

Back on the 718: I find myself wishing for Porsche to back its cars better with longer-running guarantees against engine and transmission failure. It would increase the price of a car, but would incentivize Porsche more in a direction I want.

Edit: relates to turbo failure worries on the 718.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Agreed, particularly in relation to new engine designs - after all Hyundai offer 5 yr warranties

 

[RandR]

2016 Drive Car of the Year: Best Convertible

Drive car of the Year Winner (convertible) - 718S

Some very positive comments