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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

FWIW I think we will not have to endure turbo 4-cylinders for long. The combustion thing is probably going bust soon.

I don't quite understand why they do not already make a 981/718 equivalent to the Tesla Roadster. They could even sacrifice a trunk for more battery. People would have a blast with that one.

I'd much rather have the trunk.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Now I'm even more sure of my preference.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Another Glowing Review


718S So close, yet so far

"oh my, does it sound awful. ... sounds like a canal boat at standstill, like there's a swarm of Spitfires about 500 meters behind you at highway speeds, and downright unpleasant when you're pushing it.

The howl of the old car rose and fell as you pushed the car. Its hollowness rang happily in your ears for days after a spirited drive. The latest Cayman S ... clatters, bawls and scrapes its way along the road. ... it's quickly drowned out by a hateful...noise. That's precisely what it is: it's a noise. And you're trapped in the cabin with it. It's just horrid."

It's just horrid?

http://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/2017-porsche-718-cayman-face-of-an-angel-voice-of-indegestion/

"Face of an angel, voice of indigestion"

You left out the end of that review:

"Here's the thing about the new Cayman S: It's a fantastic car. A brilliant one, even. It's fast, it's comfortable, it can just about be practical and it feels simply wonderful. If you want that, take some serious time looking at it. But if you want an aural treat, as well, maybe you should start looking for a last-generation Cayman GTS."

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

How many NA flat 6 PAG engines have you driven and for how many years?
How many reviews of any Porsche have you read? 200? 500? 50? Just curious. In a previous post you didn't know what Excellence was so I'll guess not that
many.

Porsche isn't necessarily about performance in production cars per se. Everyone knows that if you want street performance, you buy a Z06 for much cheaper money or Godzilla, built to take down a 911 Turbo. Its that sound, that wail that matters. Go find and read Porsche reviews in the last 30 years and find some bad ones. Get a count. Here's a hint, they are far and few between. You might have to go back to the 924 years and not a flat 6.

It's that magic engine wail (not exhaust) but the engine wailing that matters. Now it appears consumers get to look forward to "clatters, bawls and scrapes". Sad. New consumers will never know what they missed. I suggest reading Speedmonkey: The Porsche Flat 6 – The Greatest Engine In The World

You see, it doesn't matter if this author or a dozen auto journalists proclaim the 718 the greatest thing since canned corned beef. It when the talk about "horrid sounds" coming from the following ... and if you lived with it you would know ... that make current owners want to cry

"It’s wail is iconic, its pedigree unrivalled, power and torque unmatched in its sector, and contains a history even some car manufacturers cannot claim to have. To class the famous little engine as anything but spectacular would be a crime against everything any petrol head stands for, it has conquered so much over such a great period of time, against the fiercest of rivals from all over the world. What Ferdinand Porsche stumbled upon in 1965, with the creation of the 911, was something of a legend, the flat 6 engine has since gone on to carve a legacy only rivalled by that of which it powers, and for that reason alone it is in my eyes the only contender when it comes to the debate of “The Greatest Engine Of All Time”."

Taking away that wail, that iconic pedigree from these cars, is probably considered sacrilegious to the existing customer base - and a sad day in Mudville. The 4 banger turbos are the future, but the NA flat 6 with its iconic wail is what it was all about. Sad day for enthusiasts.

Going 0.4 seconds quicker 0 - 60 is meaningless in a world buried in traffic. Missing the iconic wail? Sad.

My only point is if you are going to quote from a review, you might also consider including the conclusion of the reviewer. The link to this review was posted in a thread called "The Worst Review on Porsche I've Read". If a review that completely trashes one characteristic of the car but still concludes with "It's a fantastic car. A brilliant one, even. It's fast, it's comfortable, it can just about be practical and it feels simply wonderful" fits in the category of "Worst Review I've Ever Read" then it is party time in Stuttgart.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I think the v6 SLK is still naturally aspirated.

But you can only get it with a terminally unsportish transmission, at least in the U.S.

Right now you can still order the last of the SLK55s which have a more reasonable transmission and the n.a. v8.

The new (2017) versions of the SLK are now called SLC and will be either a 2.0L inline 4 turbo or a 3.0 V6 biturbo.

Even the 2017 SL roadsters are all turbos: SL450 3.0L V6 biturbo, SL550 4.7L biturbo, AMG SL63 5.5L V8 biturbo and AMG SL65 6.0L V12 biturbo

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Id expect a significant drop in US pricing from 981 to 718 as euro has dropped to very low levels for an extended time. Porsche is artificially propping up pricing and profits with USD sales. It's sort of insulting that Porsche can think they can sell a 4 cylinder car for more than a six. I suspect once this poor demand surge happens ( new model) they will be forced to slash prices or limit production. Knowing Porsche they seem happy to limit production on a given model and focus on higher yield cars like 991 or SUVs or maybe even sedans.

It is true that the dollar has appreciated against the euro for an extended time but it is also true that none of the other european car manufacturers has dropped their US prices either.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Id expect a significant drop in US pricing from 981 to 718 as euro has dropped to very low levels for an extended time. Porsche is artificially propping up pricing and profits with USD sales. It's sort of insulting that Porsche can think they can sell a 4 cylinder car for more than a six. I suspect once this poor demand surge happens ( new model) they will be forced to slash prices or limit production. Knowing Porsche they seem happy to limit production on a given model and focus on higher yield cars like 991 or SUVs or maybe even sedans.

By the way, the SUV's and sedans are assembled in a different factory than the 911's and 718's so selling less 718's is not a way to shift focus to sedans or SUVs. Rest assured, they make a huge margin on every vehicle and want to sell as many of all of them as they can by reaching as many different market segments as they can.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

In 2010 the US EPA did an extensive 184 page study of the production costs of various engine technologies by analyzing part by part various engines. One of the comparisons they made was the cost of production of a 6 cylinder 3.0L V6 naturally aspirated engine and a 4 cylinder 2.0L turbo both producing approximately 225 HP. They found that the 4 cylinder cost more to manufacture than the 6.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420r10010.pdf

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I bet none of those cars with 25 miles or so on them are actually being offered as used. Zero. When I was test driving 718's two of the ones they let me drive were right off the delivery truck. Do you think the dealer then offered them as used? Of course not.

 

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Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

2017 718 - CPO

2017 718 - CPO

2017 718 - pre-owned

2017 718 - pre-owned

That Arizona dealer is offering two 911's with under 1500 miles as CPO. Some dealers try to make you think you are getting a great deal on demo cars that way. The prices they are offering these at are ridiculously high for new cars, much less "used" ones. It is a gimmick. The West Palm Beach dealer is offering a 2017 911 with 767 miles as "used". The Oklahoma dealer is also offering a 2017 Audi A7 with 17 miles on it as "used". I'm sure you'll find a used car price on those, right? Don't hold your breath.

 

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So it appears the fears of the 718 sales in NA not being a resounding success have not been grounded in fact. For August 2016, with a resounding 61.48% of Aug, 15 981 sales, it appears the sales have been far greater than many expected. 911 sales didn't fair as well being ~80% of 2015 sales in the same time period. Porsche Reports August 2016 Retail Sales

And someone didn't think 718 sales would be booming?

It looks that way so far. The chart shows less sales in 2016 than 2015.

 

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It looks that way so far. The chart shows less sales in 2016 than 2015.

Strangely, Porsche Canada reported just about the same percentage increase in Boxster/Cayman sales in August as Porsche USA reported as a drop.

Porsche US reported a significant decline in every single model other than the Macan, which carried the entire company in the month. Porsche Canada reported increases in August sales of Boxsters, Caymans and Macans and drops in 911s, Panameras and Cayennes.

 

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I don't think you can make any conclusions at this point from the sales figures. First of all they just report Boxster/Cayman sales and don't break out how many were old cars vs 718's, Secondly the 718 is a new model and August last year that wasn't the case. A lot of Porsche buyers configure cars and anyone who waited to see and drive a floor model 718 before ordering one to their own specs has not received it yet. It will take several months before the year to year comparisons have real meaning.

I do wonder why Porsche sales were down across the board by pretty big margins in every model other than the Macan.

 

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VW & Audi have been mass producing turbo cars for well over 10 years, I rarely hear of turbo failures, mostly its their DSG that has issues, but they have come a long way also.

"Should you worry about owning a car or truck that’s turbocharged as more and more vehicles make this powertrain switch? For answers we reached out to some folks that closely monitor vehicle quality to find out what’s really going on out there.

Putting major fears to bed, Michael Karesh, developer of TrueDelta.com said, “I’m not seeing many turbocharger failures, at least not yet.” His quarterly quality survey includes responses from nearly 100,000 participants.

“A typical failure rate for a turbocharger is probably around one or two percent,” he said. According to Karesh, many of his participants’ vehicles typically have fewer than 100,000 miles on their odometers. He doesn’t have much data for cars that have gone farther than that. Still he said, “I would of expected [the failure rate] to be higher.”

In the TrueDelta survey turbocharged engines are generally pretty reliable but there are a few exceptions. “The main case [that] stuck out as being much higher than others was the 2008 BMW 535i,” said Karesh. This was the “first year of the turbocharged engine in the 5 Series.” Karesh said about one in six of these 535i models has had turbo-related issues over the past two years, though he cautioned that his sample size is small. Still, “It’s not a fluke, either,” he said. Curiously he said the failure rate in the 335i, which for the same year featured an identical engine, only has about a two percent failure rate."

 

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Porsche Reports August 2016 Retail Sales
Porsche Reports September 2016 Retail Sales

Box/Cay sales in US

2016 2015

474 771
421 612

Totals

2015 1383
2016 895

Sales down 35% for these two latest months.

And 911 sales are down 29% for the two months, but the 911 sales were down 39% in September vs 38% drop for Boxster/Cayman in September. The only Porsche selling well is the Macan.

 

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Not a good start. I'd expect the sales numbers at the end of the calendar year will tell the tale regarding what the buying public thinks about this model.

911 sales down round 10%.

On a positive note, CPO sales are up 9%--no connection right?

911 sales down 39% in September.

 

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Last month 73% of the vehicles sold by Porsche of North America were SUV's leaving a total of only 27% to be split between 911's, Panameras and Boxster/Cayman. In September at least it would be fair to describe Porsche as an SUV company that dabbles in sports cars.

Only 10% of sales were 911 models. 9% were Boxster/Caman and 8% Panameras.

 

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In my opinion, there is a difference in the median income between Cayman/Boxster customer and the 911 customer. Porsche , especially marketing, wants to keep the difference between the cars clearly apparent. The difference between the 718 and the 911 has to be clear, sound ,styling, etc. Do not confuse them, and they are not competitors. 981 was getting too close for their comfort.

Cheers

It is not true in the absolute that they are not competitors. I looked at both the 911 and the 718 Boxster and can easily afford either. I ordered a Boxster because I decided that I strongly prefer that model overall. I might not be typical but am sure I'm not alone in thinking that way.

 

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I question the veracity of the oft-stated income levels of 911 buyers. How would Porsche know? If buyers are paying cash, there's no income data. If buyers are financing they're doing it from LOCs or at lower, preferred customer rates from their own financial institutions than Porsche ever offers...and again, no income data provided to Porsche. Could Porsche be getting income data from surveys? I've purchased a new 911, a used one and a new Cayman. Other than the standard "how was the experience/rate the dealer" follow-up, I've never received a survey of any kind from Porsche asking for income data. If they (or anyone else other the the taxman or my financial institution) asked, I wouldn't tell them. Who here - either 911, Boxster/Cayman, Macan/Cayenne or Panamera owner - has been asked outside of a loan application through the dealer, for income info? If asked, who has provided the info? (Of course, providing income for a lease doesn't apply.)

Let's assume that the info has been somehow collected in a way that actually represents buyers. There are a couple of realities with respect to 911s that would skew any data collected. First is the outliers; those buyers with massive incomes in the millions or tens of millions that - unless filtered and accounted for - make an average or mean number pretty much meaningless. https://statistics.laerd.com/statistical-guides/measures-central-tendency-mean-mode-median.php

Second is which model? The price for the specialty 911s (such as the R and the PCA Clubsports) as well as GT3RSs and any GT2 is double or more what a base 911 costs and attracts a class of well-heeled buyers and collectors entirely different from "normal" 911s. Has anyone seen numbers split out for different models? I certainly haven't. I personally know two recent buyers of new 911s (one base C2, the other a C4s) and both are professionals with incomes of around $200-$250k. They both have investments and property portfolios, however, and both paid cash. (As any business owner knows, "income" is a squishy term: we can make the number be whatever it needs to be depending on the purpose and who's asking.)

Kudos to Porsche for successfully introducing and feeding this automotive meme. It feeds the 911 mystique, and helps maintain the aura of exclusivity around the company's halo product. I think it's pure marketing BS, wrapped up in bogus "statistics" and perpetuated by an automotive community that routinely passes around without question the suspect "facts" they encounter on the web.

I wonder the same thing. Even lease or loan applications don't always tell the story. Whenever I have leased a car on the application I have always written my income as the amount I think they'd need to see to qualify with a plus sign after it. I have never disclosed my full income to anyone other than the taxing authorities and see no reason to.