[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I tend to repeat in my mind what my dad said as I was growing up when it came to trying and or experiencing certain things in life..."I don't have to go to prison to know that I don't want to live in one..."

That advice seems to echo in my mind when it comes to a 4 pot/Boosted Porsche for the kind of money they will initially command "for the first year anyway."

It will never be sold for 30K, what it is worth, and it is a purposely degraded product so it will not compete with a 911. Why would anybody want to buy this car ?, is beyond my comprehension.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

That's actually an interesting thought. If they didn't do this to the 981, imagine people kept buying 981's that feel and sound the way they do now. Then those people hop in a new turbo 911 and feel that wave of disappointment.

This change to the turbo-4's virtually guarantees that people who look to move up will see and feel a definite improvement across the board when they get into a new 911.

True and that is why they did it, however as an unintended consequence, it has managed kill the Cayman and , possibly, the Boxster. Porsche Management is completely divorced from reality as far as their mid engine cars are concerned.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

" loved the character of the 981, it was exactly what I wanted and I bought it. I'm having a harder time falling in love with the brand. "

Well Porsche is looking more and more like the GM of the '70, '80 and '90. Namely, take a VW truck, add an Audi engine, change the bumpers, place Porsche lables all over the place and people will buy it in droves, make a lot of money from unsuspecting customers. Remember in the '70 when all those Oldsmobile customers found out they all had 350 V8's from Chevrolet. As if it made any difference. Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, Cadillac, different prices for the same car. Make lots of money, until people became wise to it and then bankruptcy. That is the consequence of following Marketing directions at the expense of customers and enthusiasts.

“We were facing a complex task,” project leader Jan Roth tells us. “Marketing wanted to move the mid-engined twins further away from the rear-engined 911. The dedicated means to this end is the new four-cylinder boxer. Why not a smaller displacement flat-six? Because now that we are introducing turbocharging across the board, it would have been impossible to package the bigger powerplant. Believe me — it was difficult enough to find space for the flat-four and for the related extra intake and exhaust plumbing, not to mention the complex intercooler assembly. For these reasons alone, the six was never on our radar.”

I give you Porsche Marketing.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

FWIW I think we will not have to endure turbo 4-cylinders for long. The combustion thing is probably going bust soon.

I don't quite understand why they do not already make a 981/718 equivalent to the Tesla Roadster. They could even sacrifice a trunk for more battery. People would have a blast with that one.

We will not have to endure it long because it will be discontinued for lack of sales, not because it is going electric.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Agreed.

People are confusing policies with politics. They are not the same.

We all understand the only reason Porsche went all-turbo is because of government-mandated emission policies. There is nothing political in acknowledging that fact.

Arguing about the real or imagined benefits and costs of said policies would fall into the realm of a political discussion.

It is all make believe because the turbos, especially in the 718, do not improve mileage, in the real world. The improvement is only an illusion, promulgated by testing methodology.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

No apology necessary!

Agree with all your points, wholeheartedly.

Seldomly have I pined for more torque/horsepower in my Cayman S. It is a driver's car. I didn't buy it for its stop light-to-stop light drag racing prowess, as any run of the mill 5.0 Mustang would clean its clock. Rather, on a circuit, the 981 offers one of the finest, and accessible, overall driving experiences of any naturally aspirated mid-engine sports car short of a Ferrari 458 (Cayman GT4 notwithstanding.)

Porsche's decision to move to a turbo-charged engine completely alters the driving experience. "Yes, but look at all this beautiful low-end torque the new engine delivers!", they say. "Who cares?", I reply. "Gone is the linear, precise application of power that matched the 981 chassis so perfectly and made it an equally sublime driving experience on the road and on the circuit; gone is the high-strung howl of the naturally aspirated flat-six that is the aural signature of Stuttgart's own prancing horse. These Porsche tangibles have been replaced by a puttering, wheezy, unresponsive engine that is better suited for Toyota or Subaru than a sports car produced by the greatest marque in motor racing."

Will the 718 sell well? No, I don't believe it will. But I don't think Porsche really cares. I believe Porsche executives made a conscious decision to protect the identity of their one and only Holy Grail sports car, the 911, and see the 718 as... somewhat of a low-volume, necessary annoyance. The 718, with a downsized engine that, on paper at least, provides terrific fuel mileage and helps Porsche meet their overall fleet fuel savings targets. And the 718 provides a lower cost entry point to hook new buyers into the Porsche sports car family. Meaningfully increasing sales of the 718 isn't particularly important to them. That's the job of the 911.

I believe Porsche will continue to pour their resources into the 911 model line-up and will offer even more variants, all offered at exquisitely profitable price points (I believe the current 911 line-up covers more than 20 separate models, right?) They see the 911 as both the beating heart of the Porsche brand and a symbol that gives them a license to print money. And they are right, of course, because it is both of these things. And they've made sure to protect it. Would consumers be willing to pay such price premiums for their Cayennes and Macans if these SUVs weren't tied to the iconic Porsche 911's pedigree? I doubt it.

And your point about the 911 Turbo versus the GT3 is spot on. Two amazing 911s, but each delivers a very different driving experience and aimed at two different kinds of enthusiasts.

The 718 will sell well at 30k + USD, MSRP. Which is what this entry 4 cyl. turbo car is worth. Otherwise at current MSRP, add simple options and you have a car in the 80 to 90K price ? That is just ludicrous. Worse value for the money of any sports car in the U.S. The car used to be compared, (981), to a 911. Now it is compared to a Subaru Impreza. What a joke.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Amen, Chows.

Porsche AG would have run focus groups and done research during development that would have provided a pretty good idea of how much FI 4-pot pushback there would be, and what segment(s) of the market would be vocal. Whether there is a sales threshold under which they pull the plug on the Boxtser/Cayman, or this is just a stopgap measure before unveiling a new FI/4-pot/hybrid electric (or a full electric) down the road, only Porsche knows. They don't care that a few normally grovelling media types are jumping on the "woe is me it's a 4-cylinder" bandwagon (same as the electric steering tempest in a teacup), or that 20 or 200 or 2000 current and former Cayman/Boxster owners wish it had a flat-six. Seriously people...get a grip: the money people here spend on Porsches is a rounding error in their global marketing budget. A P9er could set themselves on fire in their 981 in Times Square as a protest and it won't change a thing. Porsche will do what it plans to do.

I'm still looking forward to a test drive of the 718 BS, and may still buy one. Even with the guttural exhaust note and turbo, it would be quicker than my 911 GTS and almost certainly put as big a grin on my face when I'm romping around the mountain roads in these parts. Oh wait, I'm actually LIKING the exhaust note and couldn't care less that it's 4 cylinders. But Porsche already knew that about me and the others among us that might actually buy one.

It is what it is. Porsche Marketing achieved a clear demarcation, of the distinction between a 718, and a 911 by degrading the 718. That is a distinction admitted by their own development team. As for me , I cannot understand why anybody would want a degraded product, again, as admitted by their own development team.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

A bit late perhaps, but this isn't particularly accurate. It's not so much about overheating engine or turbo (the latter prefers to be as hot as possible) but the increased pressure and temperature of the mixture due to forced induction is more susceptible to knock/detonation. That's where the extra fuel comes in. Modern turbocharged engines (going back a decade or more) keep running 14.7:1 as long as they possibly can even under full boost for a limited amount of time. They do get richer when you rev them out all the way but they don't start enriching as soon as you see boost, far from it.

They do suffer in terms of efficiency from pumping losses and (less of an issue these days but still) lower static compression than comparable NA engines. Whether they are more efficient depends on how you drive them at the end of the day. On a race track they will more often than not be worse than a NA car in terms of fuel consumption but there are situations where smaller displacement does help. Either way 99.9% of the time an average person drives a turbocharged car the "running richer" thing isn't in play.

I do not know who you define as an average person, but few average people buy sport cars.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

If sport-cars were just priced by the number of cylinders then yeah...but how about track-performance, acceleration etc.? The 718 beats the 981 in EVERY performance aspect and not by small margins.
I would think that there are sports car buyers out there that value performance over # of cylinders.

And the Corvette Stingray, beats the 718"s performance aspect , not by small margins either. Which car will performance driven sports car buyers will prefer ?

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Just because the tech trickles down doesn't necessarily mean 981/718 owners will trade up to a 911. There's simply too much of a price difference. If you have data to the contrary, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

This is moot however, as MidengineFan made no mention of trading up. He asserted that Porsche made the car so that people will buy a 911 "instead". This is what I keep reading here.


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“We were facing a complex task,” project leader Jan Roth tells us. “Marketing wanted to move the mid-engined twins further away from the rear-engined 911. The dedicated means to this end is the new four-cylinder boxer. Why not a smaller displacement flat-six? Because now that we are introducing turbocharging across the board, it would have been impossible to package the bigger powerplant. Believe me — it was difficult enough to find space for the flat-four and for the related extra intake and exhaust plumbing, not to mention the complex intercooler assembly. For these reasons alone, the six was never on our radar.”

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

"I took a friends 20 year old son for a spin in the Cayman, and while he loved the car and the sound, he also loves the Subaru sound. "

Nothing wrong with that. The car is more like a Subaru than before. People like Subarus.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Great point on the used 981 - and you could also argue that the move to a 4 cylinder for the entry level Porsche is aimed at the millennial generation (as you mention above) - which has likely progressed through Hondas, Subeys, and BMWs that are all turbo charged and have tuning capabilities. The NA platform is truly dying a slow death...

See Jan Roths's comments above. Leaves no room for conjecture.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

This has been posted before. Where does it imply: "We don't want you to buy a 718"?

The reason for the change, No conjectures.

Cheers.

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

And your point is?

I keep reading , in threads reasons for the engine change, eg. fuel economy, young people like Subaru's and 4 cylinders. None of that is so. The reason for the change was the "MANDATE" from Porsche Marketing. End of story.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I asked that this thread remain on the OP, reviews. Ralarcon please let it go here. no more warnings.

Thanks

Which is the reason for the bad review.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

"I find it particularly risible when six-a-holics dismiss the 718's performance advantage as being unimportant to a real sports car. Performance isn't everything, of course, but it's a pretty big part of the traditional definition of "sports car". Bigger than even cylinder count."

I don't know. A 4 cylinder Ferrari would not do it for me. But that is just me.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

"Even Porsche engineers quietly admit they wouldn't have ditched the six-cylinder heart of the thing unless they were compelled to." Mike Duff, Car and Driver , October issue 2016.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

IOW, you are dismissing the performance of the 718.


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Frankly, if I were interested in performance, principally, I would buy a Corvette Stingray.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

Simply pointing out the contradiction in your post.


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I, for one do not see any inconsistencies in his argument.

Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

What no one has discussed yet ...

Wait until the turbos go, and they will go soon or later.

I hope the 718 buyers have DEEP pockets :helpme:

This won't be Subaru money to fix. It will be Porsche money to fix.

Good point !

Cheers