A buddy of mine claims that insurance companies have been known to drop people from coverage if they find out they have been tracking their car. That seems extreme to me and I have never heard of this personally happening. Even if you do post the video online, they would be challenged to tie your identity back to the forum handle that posted the video. I personally would not worry about this.

 

If you're doing DEs, there is an excellent chance your insurance company won't cover any damage to your car or an OP's car anyway so it should be no skin off their nose what you are doing. Even if your policy doesn't mention track days as an exclusion, it doesn't prevent them from excluding damage after the fact based on how they interpret their own policy language.

 

There's a significant difference between being at the track racing and doing a driver's education event. The latter should not be an issue (IANAL). Personally, I'd just post the videos :taunt:

 

This is kind of what I thought. It's DE. They're extremely strict about timing devices and I think this is why.

 

Both PCA and SCCA make it a point to strongly tell you NOT to publish DE video for various reasons.
Once you Post ANYTHING on-line, it is out of your control forever, even if you copywrite the video.
I don't use any video but don't want any of myself Posted.-Richard

 

The potential fraud being perpetrated by others should not be your concern. Post away.

Now, it is bad form to post crash footage or images of damage.

Cheers,

 

The potential fraud being perpetrated by others should be your concern. Post away.

Now, it is bad form to post crash footage or images of damage.

Cheers,

Fraud?? How so?

And yeah... I definitely wouldn't post any crashed, if any such things occurred. Thankfully, I have nothing to show in that respect.

 

It's probably discussion for an entirely different thread... but there's argument to be made that they did in these cases. Nobody will argue that you're not covered for racing. That's all pretty clearly defined.

Technically though, DE is basically driving school. You're not competing with anyone. Not even yourself. There's no timing, so you're not trying to beat some personal record or anything. You're just being taught how to drive better.

So whether that happens on a racetrack or in a parking lot or on the public roads seems rather irrelevant.

For Porsche to suggest that something isn't covered under warranty because you've driven the car as it was intended for seems ludicrous.

For insurance to deny a claim because something happened while you were learning to be a better driver is also ridiculous.

Now... I know they'll try and often succeed. I'm just giving the justification for why they shouldn't.

Now... when it comes to fraud... yeah... when you start modifying things and then they break and you pretend it's not your fault... that's fraud. I've seen plenty of people try to make claims on stuff they had no right to. That's not what this is about though.... unless the video shows suspension settings way out of anything possible without modifying or any other mods that the owner then claims not to have had. And I agree... I'm not really interested one way or the other in worrying about that.

 

Unfortunately you are 100% incorrect. If you drive your Porsche on track at a DE, Porsche may refuse any warranty coverage. Been there and done that.

 

What Krokodil said...

 

Interesting, and good to know!

Now... is this similar to modifications in that they need to show that the track driving was the cause of the failure?

 

is this similar to modifications in that they need to show that the track driving was the cause of the failure?

MM, the law you are referring to, does not apply to you. That is a USA law. You will need to look up and see if Canada has a similar law. A quick Google search and I cannot find anything equivalent. P-car forums are littered with threads on warranties denied and warranties authorized for both track use and modifications. You can look them up yourself. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't.

I'm going to guess they can do just about whatever they want if you want fight them and say "no sir, that part didn't fail because I did a track day", good luck with that. Maybe you win, maybe you lose. But I'll guess they have more corporate lawyers than you do

 

Interesting, and good to know!

Now... is this similar to modifications in that they need to show that the track driving was the cause of the failure?

I suppose that you are alluding to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act which requires that warranty contracts must fully, clearly, and conspicuously disclose their terms and conditions in simple and readily understood language. Chow4us specified the exclusion that is in the Warranty booklet that all new owners are given, but few actually read. I know that it may seem counter intuitive, but track use may be interpreted as "abuse." Therefore, any product failures that occur while the car is engaged in track use may be excluded from warranty coverage. So all that Porsche has to prove is that the car was tracked.
As far as mods are concerned, all Porsche has to do is to produce an expert witness who will likely be an Automotive Porsche Engineer with numerous certifications, who will testify that in his "expert" opinion the mods were the cause of the part failure.
These are US requirements. I would imagine that there are similar regulations for countries outside the US.

 

I suppose that you are alluding to the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act which requires that warranty contracts must fully, clearly, and conspicuously disclose their terms and conditions in simple and readily understood language. Chow4us specified the exclusion that is in the Warranty booklet that all new owners are given, but few actually read. I know that it may seem counter intuitive, but track use may be interpreted as "abuse." Therefore, any product failures that occur while the car is engaged in track use may be excluded from warranty coverage. So all that Porsche has to prove is that the car was tracked.
As far as mods are concerned, all Porsche has to do is to produce an expert witness who will likely be an Automotive Porsche Engineer with numerous certifications, who will testify that in his "expert" opinion the mods were the cause of the part failure.
These are US requirements. I would imagine that there are similar regulations for countries outside the US.

Actually, "abuse" is there too. I just didn't quote abuse because it specifically excluded tracks. Further, these cars are normal production cars. They are NOT intended for track use in any way. People can try to rationalize this but its likely to fail. Want a track car, buy a track car. No excuse now for box/cay owners. Get a GT4 (or GT3 or GT2). I am sure there are many people here who tried to use their 987 Cayman like a GT3 and found out the hard way the oil starvation issues.

 

To address several points in no particular order:
Porsche warranty exclusion is a matter of contract law. Read the contract as chows suggested.
I expect PCNA to warranty my GT4 for non-racing track events (e.g., DE) since it is clearly marketed and built as a track car (but not as a race car) e.g. TPMS race circuit setting, numerous marketing pieces, the EVO interview with AP, references in the owner's manual.
Insurance Coverage: read the myriad threads on that subject. It too is a matter of contract law. Read your policy. If the language does not exclude DEs (i.e., any claim arising on a race track or similar language) you're covered. Most, but not all, exclude.
PCA DEs officially prohibit/discourage timing as a requirement of PCA's insurance.
DEs are quasi-public venues so there's nothing to prohibit posting track videos or still photos (as is common by track photogs trying to sell to drivers). As said, it's really bad form to post crashes unless you are the involved driver or have the drivers' permission. That said, there's nothing to stop it other than peer pressure or the event admins. In my Region, we don't regularly have car damage, but when we do we call a drivers' meeting to reinforce our morning caution. We police the crowd that always gathers to gawk. We've never spotted any unauthorized posted incidents, but if we do I expect we'll take some action against the poster. Perhaps a ban from future events. DEs are already threatened without idiots creating the illusion of track carnage.

Dan
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