Nitrogen apparently does not expand and contract as temperatures change, the way that the air we breath [Oxygen] does.

I don't want to burst your bubble [pun intended], but the air we breathe is 78% Nitrogen and about 21% Oxygen. Also, all gasses expand and contract when the temperature changes. I doubt the difference is even noticeable. I do agree that the oxygen inside the tire might accelerate oxidation, but there's oxygen on the outside too.

Edited by - hsjb on 03/31/2006 07:12:06 AM

 

I have to agree with hsjb, the outside air is around 78% nitrogen, so 4/5ths of your tire is already filled with nitrogen, will that extra 1/5th make a huge difference? I guess it depends on the cost to you, if it is free, then sure go ahead, don't see it hurting anything, if it costs $$$ then it will impact your pocketbook at a minimum. /fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/teeth_smile.gif


I'm assuming for every day driving the difference is not noticeable, hard track use there could be some small differences, as hsjb said, all gases expand and contract, just at various temperatures and to various degrees. I'd have to pull out my old chemistry books to see if there are formulas for oxygen expansion vs. nitrogen expansion and what the differences are.

 

Nope, more snake oil. However if someone packaged it as a special 'porsche' enhancement there would be many buyers/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/teeth_smile.gif, some from right here. I can see it now, color coded nitrogen for your tires that match the factory paint on your car, guaranteed to bedifferent than air, recommended nitrogen change ever 10,000 miles.....

 

Nitrogen or Oxygen, PV=nRT. Isn't that what it all Boyles down to?

Edited by - DaveC on 03/31/2006 07:38:29 AM

 

Nitrogen or Oxygen, PV=nRT. Isn't that what it all Boyles down to?

Very Nice!!

 

Let's see what I can dig up:


Oxygen: Thermal conductivity [/W m^-1 K^-1]: 0.02658


Nitrogen: Thermal conductivity [/W m^-1 K^-1]: 0.02583


Oxygen: Melting point [/K]: 54.8 [or -218.3 °C (-360.9 °F)]


Nitrogen: Melting point [/K]: 63.05 [or -210.1 °C (-346.18 °F)]


Interesting Gas Law reading at http://web.fccj.org/~ethall/gaslaw/gaslaw.htm


Here is an interesting quote from that page: 'all gases when subjected to an equal rise in temperature expand by the same amount'

 

what about helium wont this make the wheels lighter..................lol

 

I suspect that some of you may need to breathe in a bit more Oxygen/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/teeth_smile.gif

 

In Nascar and I am sure in other forms of racing they do use pure Nitrogen. One of the reason I have heard is that less leaks through the rubber of the tire than with 'air'. I have also heard that there is some advantage to do with temperature but as was pointed out it cannot be purely expansion.

 

The following describes the advantages.


http://www.airliquide.com/en/medias/pdf/business/gases/supply/tires_filling.pdf

 

The following describes the advantages.


http://www.airliquide.com/en/medias/pdf/business/gases/supply/tires_filling.pdf

Mostly marketing hype and hogwash and certainly not applicable to Porsche owners.

Examples:

1) A 2% increase in fuel economy is not a "significant fuel economy"
2) Any Porsche owners here planning on doing retreads?
3) I'm not sure I understand the whole "Nitrogen migration" claim. Gasses transfer across partially-permeable membranes (rubber is partially-permeable) from a higher ratio to the lower ration. I would actually argue the opposite that if the same gas is present in the same percentages on two sides of a membrane, very little migration actually occurs.
4) I'd bet their claims of 25% increased tire life could just as easily be achieved by properly maintaining the tire pressure.

 

ah yes...a completely unbiased opinion from the Nitra lite company!

I did a bit a research on my own, and if you aren't paying extra, go ahead . I think the main advantage is that pure Nitrogen is 'dry' whereas air can have varying levels of moisture and a tank of nitrogen can be used without the hassle of a compressor at track events etc. Aviation uses Nitrogen filled to help avoid the moisture issue.

 

 

Here's my limited knowledge base:

100% Nitrogen is frequently used for truck tires, aircraft tires, and sometimes racing tires because:

1. oxidation - since the oxygen supports combustion, if the tires get REAL hot and catch on fire, then nitrogen doesn't provide the combustive support.
2. Compressed air (includes 78% nitrogen - cause its what we breathe) generally contains lots of moisture, due to poor compressor air drying. And because there is some minimal leakage through the rubber, the moisture affects the steel belts and leads to rust - another byproduct of the oxidation.

This is a big deal in aircraft tires and commercial truck tires, because most of the tires get recapped and keep on doing the job. The heavy loads on truck tires and aircraft tires REALLY stress the sidewalls, and rusty steel cord isn't a very secure feeling.

For racing tires, if the tires are kept for a long time, this is likely an issue. But at races like the Indy 500, tires see a part of a race, then they are retired (I think). Do they use recaps??

I suspect at 200MPH that the tires are getting hot enogh to be a combustion concern, and the 100% dry nitrogen is an added precaution.

 

<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">It is always a pleasure to come in here to read the posts, informative and relaxing at the same time.</div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">In the early days, men don’t take showers. Today, men must take shower everyday. </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"></div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">In the 2006, tires are NOT filled with nitrogen. In the year of 2525, all tires are filled with 99.999% nitrogen. </div>
<div style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"></div>
Does nitrogen have a merit in tire business?Thinking .....thinking...... [/quote]

 

DaveC: I wonder if many got your pun...hilarious. From an old chemistry major.

 

DaveC: I wonder if many got your pun...hilarious. From an old chemistry major.

Those of us who took enough chemistry to know Boyle's Law and the how to remember "Pivnert"



I think this is the slate of chem courses I took in college:

Chem 11a

Chem 11b

Chem 11c

Chem 11c lab



Chem 21

Chem 21 lab

Chem 23

Chem 23 lab

Chem 25

Chem 25 lab



Edited by - hsjb on 03/31/2006 10:40:21 AM

 

ah yes...a completely unbiased opinion from the Nitra lite company!

I did a bit a research on my own, and if you aren't paying extra, go ahead . I think the main advantage is that pure Nitrogen is 'dry' whereas air can have varying levels of moisture and a tank of nitrogen can be used without the hassle of a compressor at track events etc. Aviation uses Nitrogen filled to help avoid the moisture issue.

You are absolutely right.
We have raced Formula Ford, Formula For Zetec, Formula Ford 2000 and Formula Renault.
In theese formulas it had no effect. But the above mentioned reasons are those used in motorsports.
You also use the nitrogen tanks for the air jacks on racecars for old men ( = non singel seaters/open wheel) Sorry! Just joking...!/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/dance.gif

 

Guys,


In ALL forms of racing, nitrogen is used to take most of the guesswork out of changing tire pressures resulting from the buildup of heat. On an average summer day at the track, your tire pressure (assuming that you are pushing the car hard) could go from 28 cold in the morning to about 50 or more by late in the afternoon, requiring you ao your crew to adjust it every session. Nitrogen, on the other hand, will rise a predictable amount (4-6 pounds) as soon as the tire is properly heated , and will remain there there for the rest of the day. Any serious race team uses this as a means to eliminate one of the many unknowns in racing.

 

I agree with Rick,

When I club raced, we found the amount of pressure rise over a track session to be both stable and predictable using nitrogen instead of air. Our car was very sensitive to tire pressure, and we could tune by adjusting TP's at each corner. the first cold lap would be squirrely, but when they came up to temp, that stayed 'right' throughout the session. We surmised that this was the manifestation of a couple factors:
1. humidity. water expands more with temperature,; there is not much ability to control the umidity of the air that goes into your tires. We used medical grade nitrogen, which was much drier than compressed air, so we eliminated that factor.
2. specific heat - nitrogen can hold less heat, therefore less pressure change as the tire temperature changes. The delta was subtle, but we were talking about a car that 'felt' .5 lb differences in tire pressure on the track.

In the real world it is nothing but BS and bragging rights- no way someone could ever feel or prove a performance difference at street speeds (even high ones) on street :burnout:tires.

 

What do you think of my new business plan?



<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Introducing [/quote]“P” [/quote]Air. The [/quote]Nitrogen [/quote]Solution!<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Worried that Porsche didn’t add enough h.p. to your Cayman? <o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Have every Porsche [/quote]add on [/quote]available?<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Now you canseek that extra performance edge. <o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Guaranteed to be at least 78% Nitrogen.<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Send us your money and we will send you a refillable tank which you can return to us for refilling [/quote]at your own expense.<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">For best results (financial results for us) change your nitrogen every 10,000 miles.<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">We can custom paint your “P” Air tank to match the color of your carfor lots of extra money!<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Take advantage of our 0% off sale today.<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">(shipping to Hawaii available at a premium expense to you)<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-pagination: none">Copyright [/quote]<span dir="ltr">[/quote]1-April-06[/quote]<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-pagination: none"><o></o>[/quote]

Edited by - Santa Fe on 03/31/2006 12:14:37 PM

 

Hey.....thats my idea, and my Nitrogen is waaay better than your Nitrogen!

 

lled with nitrogen. In the year of 2525, all tires are filled with 99.999% nitrogen. </div>

Will there BE tires 519 years into the future?

 

What do you think of my new business plan?



<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Introducing

“P” [/quote]Air. The [/quote]Nitrogen [/quote]Solution!<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Worried that Porsche didn’t add enough h.p. to your Cayman? <o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Have every Porsche [/quote]add on [/quote]available?<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Now you canseek that extra performance edge. <o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Guaranteed to be at least 78% Nitrogen.<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Send us your money and we will send you a refillable tank which you can return to us for refilling [/quote]at your own expense.<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">For best results (financial results for us) change your nitrogen every 10,000 miles.<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">We can custom paint your “P” Air tank to match the color of your carfor lots of extra money!<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Take advantage of our 0% off sale today.<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">(shipping to Hawaii available at a premium expense to you)<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal">Copyright [/quote]<span dir="ltr">[/quote]1-April-06[/quote]<o></o>[/quote]
<p style="" class="MsoNormal"><o></o>[/quote]
Edited by - Santa Fe on 03/31/2006 12:14:37 PM [/quote]

Hey Santa Fe,

That sounds like a bunch of hot air to me LOL

 

'Mostly marketing hype and hogwash and certainly not applicable to Porsche owners. Examples: 1) A 2% increase in fuel economy is not a 'significant fuel economy' 2) Any Porsche owners here planning on doing retreads? 3) I'm not sure I understand the whole 'Nitrogen migration' claim. Gasses transfer across partially-permeable membranes (rubber is partially-permeable) from a higher ratio to the lower ration. I would actually argue the opposite that if the same gas is present in the same percentages on two sides of a membrane, very little migration actually occurs. 4) I'd bet their claims of 25% increased tire life could just as easily be achieved by properly maintaining the tire pressure.
'


1) you're right...2% is minuscule.


2) Prolly not, but it still surprises me to see what tire someowners put on their cars. Porsche and otherwise.


3) I believe you are somewhat correct about your migration theory. Two things though- what about when the pressure inside is greater than that outside? What about the size of the N molecule as compared to the other 22% of what makes up air? Would not the smaller molecules migrate out first and deplete what is inside (under pressure)?


4) Absolutely correct! How many people in the rest of the auto driving world check their air pressure with any regularity? How many P owners? Therin the real benefit- for those who do not, N would be helpful.


Now, if you have to pay for it? Would the added cost offset the fuel economy/wear issues? Prolly not.

 

Here's some more- If you want pure Nitrogen (93% or higher) for free, and are in the US, contact me offline. I can probably help.





Not a joke.

 

4) Absolutely correct! How many people in the rest of the auto driving world check their air pressure with any regularity? How many P owners? Therin the real benefit- for those who do not, N would be helpful.

I guess I would want to see a test where two tires on the same car (maybe one on the left has N only and the right has air) pumped to the exact same pressure. Come back in two weeks and see if there is any noticeable difference.