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Persy, I want to make sure I'm not missing anything here. Are you saying the GT4 cannot be used as a daily drive even with Sports Seats instead of the LWBS?

If so, can you elaborate why?
Kindly address the ground clearance, stiffness, comfort, drive... etc. and anything that can be an important factor to be considered.

PS The reason I'm asking is because I'm flirting with a crazy idea of ordering a GT3 or GT4 as an addition to my turbo. But I like all my cars to be a daily drive despite keeping an SUV on the side.
 

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"Are you saying the GT4 cannot be used as a daily drive even with Sports Seats instead of the LWBS?"

I'm curious what his answer will be since I'm planning to daily drive my GT4 with the sofa seats. All of the car reviews say it's great on the street, but I'm not naive to its shortcomings. It will certainly be a bit stiffly sprung, but I live in a place with good roads. It will also be louder, but I currently have a 987 Boxster S with the TPC turbo/exhaust so my car is already loud, and it doesn't bother me. Beyond that, the low clearance will be an issue, but I'm prepared to buy the occasional new front splitter if necessary. I'm really looking forward to it...Plus I have an A8L if I really want a softer, quieter ride.
 

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Discussion Starter #103
I am back, sorry for the late reply :)

Regarding the daily driver question, it really comes down to how tolerant you are. I am definitely more tolerant than not, to set the scene.

There are a few things to look out for, some you can mitigate, others not:
  • Ground clearance: Manoeuvring down parking houses and and over speed bumps could be troublesome. I am not afraid of the front lip, it is a cheap replacement as long as the facia is not damaged (if the facia cracks, then it will be expensive!). However, the wheelbase is long and the car is low. I scraped, with hairs thin margin, the undercarriage going slowly over a bump once. Scary.
  • Tires: The Michelin Cup2 tires are amazing on dry asphalt. Very grippy! In the wet, when there is standing water, they start to feel unsafe at motorway speeds. The tires could be changed to normal street tires of course. Problem solved.
  • Bucket seats: To me these are complete no-go for daily use. The seats give fantastic support on the track, the best buckets I ever tried. They are also the most uncomfortable for daily use. Hard to get in and out. Zero comfort. Very hard. Could possibly be solved with pillows, but you will still need to get in and out ;) The sport seats should solve this problem.
  • Suspension: The car is very stiff and firm, but pretty compliant. You feel the suspension is of very high quality, since it never goes harsh, just hard. If you have nice roads, then I don't see a problem. If not, well... get prepared on a shaky ride.
  • Exhaust: The car is not loud in normal mode. Like PSE off in a Cayman S. No problem.
  • Sensory overload: You cannot switch off the feedback, the preciseness, the directness... the car demands your attention all the time. To me it does get a bit "overload" after more than 1-2 hours.
So to summarise, assuming you spec the car with sport seats, it is the ground clearance and the suspension which could cause problems. Both of these depend on you use of the car and the conditions of your roads. While not a problem as such, the sensory overload could be tiresome for longer trips.

Personally, as daily driver I would have gotten a GTS instead.
 

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Great post, thanks. I figure you've been driving instead of posting and I'm happy for you.
 

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Sounds to me, much like the GT3, this car is going to become a garage queen for a lot of people.
 

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Sounds to me, much like the GT3, this car is going to become a garage queen for a lot of people.
Put the GT4 engine in the GTS, then nobody but track oriented customers will be in line anymore.
 
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I am back, sorry for the late reply :)

Regarding the daily driver question, it really comes down to how tolerant you are. I am definitely more tolerant than not, to set the scene.

There are a few things to look out for, some you can mitigate, others not:
  • Ground clearance: Manoeuvring down parking houses and and over speed bumps could be troublesome. I am not afraid of the front lip, it is a cheap replacement as long as the facia is not damaged (if the facia cracks, then it will be expensive!). However, the wheelbase is long and the car is low. I scraped, with hairs thin margin, the undercarriage going slowly over a bump once. Scary.
  • Tires: The Michelin Cup2 tires are amazing on dry asphalt. Very grippy! In the wet, when there is standing water, they start to feel unsafe at motorway speeds. The tires could be changed to normal street tires of course. Problem solved.
  • Bucket seats: To me these are complete no-go for daily use. The seats give fantastic support on the track, the best buckets I ever tried. They are also the most uncomfortable for daily use. Hard to get in and out. Zero comfort. Very hard. Could possibly be solved with pillows, but you will still need to get in and out ;) The sport seats should solve this problem.
  • Suspension: The car is very stiff and firm, but pretty compliant. You feel the suspension is of very high quality, since it never goes harsh, just hard. If you have nice roads, then I don't see a problem. If not, well... get prepared on a shaky ride.
  • Exhaust: The car is not loud in normal mode. Like PSE off in a Cayman S. No problem.
  • Sensory overload: You cannot switch off the feedback, the preciseness, the directness... the car demands your attention all the time. To me it does get a bit "overload" after more than 1-2 hours.
So to summarise, assuming you spec the car with sport seats, it is the ground clearance and the suspension which could cause problems. Both of these depend on you use of the car and the conditions of your roads. While not a problem as such, the sensory overload could be tiresome for longer trips.

Personally, as daily driver I would have gotten a GTS instead.
Wow, thanks for the detailed and honest feedback about these aspects and especially the comments about the GT4 (and the LWBS) for use as a daily driver... Make me feel like I made the right choice for a DD Boxster!
 

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Put the GT4 engine in the GTS, then nobody but track oriented customers will be in line anymore.
I too have said this, if the GT4 engine was offered in the 981 GTs (either of them), those of who either use our cars a daily drivers or don't get to the track much would be in Porsche heaven!
 
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They do make a 981 gts with that engine. It's called the spyder. It hasn't effected the gt4 wait lists at all.
It's not all about the engine. It the whole package. I will enjoy the better transmission, suspension, exhaust and looks as I DD and rarely track it.
The car is designed to be driven.
 

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They do make a 981 gts with that engine. It's called the spyder. It hasn't effected the gt4 wait lists at all.
It's not all about the engine. It the whole package. I will enjoy the better transmission, suspension, exhaust and looks as I DD and rarely track it.
The car is designed to be driven.
I know you didn't quote me specifically but I had the number one spot to order a Spyder and in my humble opinion it is not a daily driver for me, the GTS is a much more rounded package and would be awesome with the 3.8 liter engine included.

Also I beg to differ about the waitlist as I know people who bought the GT4 because of the way the Spyder builds out. Please remember that just because it hits all your high points it doesn't necessarily hit everybody else's. This is no argument but simply a statement that the Spyder is not the perfect 981 roadster for everybody.

I am happy for you that Spyder works for your situation but it is certainly not the perfect roadster package as there are many that would have been happier to have the step up model be a 3.8l Boxster GTS!

No question these cars are meant to be driven and we all drive differently! ?
 

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Yes Porsche sets all their cars for understeer but beyond just suspension settings he needs to learn controls positioning, brake, clutch, shifter feel, weight balance, tire grip, aero feel and various and other sundry things, he needs to learn the complete package before he starts modifying that package and I would suggest in both dry and wet conditions.

I understand so called Internet experts have their tuning suggestions but he needs seat time more than anything at this point.
Hi K-man, I'm not sure you are aware of this - Chris Harris has driven with Porsche and I believe he has finished as high as the 13th overall in the Nbr24hr (with Porsche). Obviously you can drive out understeer through trail braking etc, reduce tire pressures in the front tires etc, engage in hard late braking - the other way to do it, all else being equal is to reduce the torsion in the front sway bar ("softer setting" thereby imparting more grip) and increase torsion in the rear sway bar as Chris suggested (because he prefers a car to be set on the oversteer side of neutral).

Personally, I would stick with the factory settings and see if and how they suited my driving style for any given track. Anyhow, all good grist for the mill.

Also, to the OP, great thread - very enjoyable read!
 

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All, this has been a very useful thread and the comments from Persy on the daily drivability question have been especially useful. I have recently gone through the process of having to decide between a CS and GTS and then ultimately being offered a potential allocation for a GT4.

The clincher for me was the height above ground of the front lip which appears to be ~100mm to 1100mm. Further, I confirmed this at the dealership using the hand test, basically I can get 4 fingers between the front lip of the GT4/GT3 and the ground surface. In contrast, I can get 4 fingers and a raised thumb between the front lip of the Cayman GTS and the ground surface (~160mm to 170mm). In the real world (certainly where I live in Australia) this difference is significant and would make access to many areas difficult due to speed humps, stop humps (in parking bays) and driveway approach angles.

Another point, in relation to HP - the simple reality is, in a daily driving situation the difference in acceleration (for example) between a GT4 and Cayman GTS is negligible (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suFaNSwQQdY) in fact the GTS with PDK appears to get to 100kmh marginally quicker than the GT4.

Superimposed on this, and again from the perspective of a daily driver, the ability to use PASM is a significant advantage for those that want to dial out the bumps on a long drive.

The GT4 is clearly a wonderful car, its a car that you buy with your heart. For me personally, my daily requirements are the reality thus my "head" won the day and I stuck with my GTS allocation. Either way, you can't lose - Porsche are clearly on a winning streak.
 

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I earlier wrote that I was going to use my GT4 as a daily driver, but I failed to add that I will definitely be tracking it as well. For those of us who plan to do both, I think the GT4 is a better choice than the GTS, particularly if the GT4 is equipped with the sport seats.

Percy is not the only one to complain about the lack of comfort with the LWBs. They look really cool, and they save a good amount of weight, but comfortable seats make a huge difference in a car that will be driven regularly on the street. Similarly, unless you build a roll cage, in my opinion you can't use a harness with the LWBs safely, so I don't see the LWBs as being safer than the sport seats without the issues that go along with building a roll cage in a car used as a daily driver.

Based on on the feedback I've been reading, I wouldn't spec my GT4 with the LWBs even if I had the choice since I will be driving it on the street a fair amount. If I were going to use it mainly as a track car, I would of course get the LWBs.

I greatly appreciate the feedback from everyone since it helps me make informed decisions on what for me is not an insignificant purchase.
 

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I'm very curious for those who have found the LWBs to be uncomfortable for street driving ... whether they have also found previous generation seats (mainly GT2 folding bucket seats) uncomfortable as well? I know the Carrera GT seats are a little tighter than the GT2 ones.

I found the 997 GT2 seats to be the best seats I have been in a regular production car. I've spent approximately about 4 hours in one go in those seats (i.e. not getting off the car at all) and never had a problem. Yet there are many who feel those seats are not bearable beyond 30-45 mins of driving.

I actually used to drive my old car with GT2 seats as a daily driver and loved it. The ingress/egress definitely isn't as easy as the one in a Camry. I needed to pull the seats all the way to the back before getting out. However, I could get in and out pretty easily once the seat is all the way back and I push myself out of the seat using the door jamb. I wouldn't even touch the bolsters that way ...

Anyway, that's just my experience with the 997 GT2 seats. Wonder if the old GT2 seats have any correlation to the new fixed back seats.
 

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I sat in the new LWBs and instantly found them uncomfortable (riding in them, in a GT3 on track, didn't change my opinion at all, as I was sliding around from side to side). Around the same time, I managed to try the buckets in a Cayman Spyder and they were muuuuch better - the shape coddled my lower back and it fit my body type (medium height and skinny) much better. Can't tell you how they'd be on a longer trip but, for seats, my first impressions usually bear out in the long term.
 

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I recently watched the EVO interview with Jethro Bovingdon and Andres Preuniger and I am fairly sure AP said the the front spring rates were 40 N/mm and the rear spring rates were 80N/mm ~ 4.08 kgf/mm and 8.16 kgf/mm which equates to 232 lbf/in front and 465 lbf/in rear.

The front is very civilised the rear less so. As a general rule of thumb, I have tended to find that once you get beyond 290lbf/in people (as in passengers) tend to find the ride harsh. Obviously this doesn't apply to track cars where dedicated racers may have spring rates ~ 582 lbf/in.
 

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As a general rule of thumb, I have tended to find that once you get beyond 290lbf/in people (as in passengers) tend to find the ride harsh. Obviously this doesn't apply to track cars where dedicated racers may have spring rates ~ 582 lbf/in.
High spring rates are ameliorated by the quality of the shocks used. My Miata, for instance, has 450 lbs/in springs in front (about 3X the OEM rate) yet the ride quality is waaaaay better than stock due to a combination of increased suspension travel and well-tuned shocks.
 

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Regarding the daily driver question, it really comes down to how tolerant you are. I am definitely more tolerant than not, to set the scene.


  • Bucket seats: To me these are complete no-go for daily use. The seats give fantastic support on the track, the best buckets I ever tried. They are also the most uncomfortable for daily use. Hard to get in and out. Zero comfort. Very hard. Could possibly be solved with pillows, but you will still need to get in and out ;) The sport seats should solve this problem.
Personally, as daily driver I would have gotten a GTS instead.
I agree these are great bucket seats, but offer a different experience in terms of comfort and getting in and out.

My Cayman R was ordered by someone else so I was stuck with sport seats P77. I only do long drives to get to twisty roads, and once I get to the good roads I take advantage by driving for 2 to 3 days, and 1200 to 1800 miles at one time. After 4 hours at one sitting the sport seats were no longer supporting me properly at 6' 2" and 185 lbs. I felt like my buttocks were sinking into the spring wires in the bottom seat, which caused lower back pain. Buying a new set of Porsche 987.2 Sport Bucket Seats - P03 (same as GT2 two piece sport bucket seats) totally solved my comfort issue on my long multiple driving day experiences. So after just a few drives my like new factory sport seats sit in a bedroom while I rack up the miles on the sport bucket seats and stay in comfort driving challenging roads. I find them easy to get in and out of with the proper technique, which to me also means placing no stress or drag from my body on either the seat bottom or back side bolsters. I would guess the GT4 Sport bucklet seats are similar to the 987.2 version in terms of shape and amount of padding. Everyone may have a different experience base on body shape, flexability, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #119
I agree, seats are very individual.

The foldable bucket seats offer more comfort than the new one-piece lightweight bucket seats.

Interestingly, I had Recaro Pole Position bucket seats in my 987 Boxster and never experienced the discomfort and stiff lower back like I do with these new lightweight bucket seats.
 
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The foldable bucket seats offer more comfort than the new one-piece lightweight bucket seats.

Interestingly, I had Recaro Pole Position bucket seats in my 987 Boxster and never experienced the discomfort and stiff lower back like I do with these new lightweight bucket seats.
I will now have to determine the difference in padding or shape between the LWBS and the foldable bucket seats. Anyone know why?
Very curious as to how and why Porsche would make the LWBS worst when the foldable seats have such great comfort for long distance driving.
 
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