[981FTW]

Re: Why this matters

I would happily buy a purest's sports car that only enjoyed analog dials, no digital. No gps, no stereo, no turbo ... manual transmission, manual windows, manual mirrors. You get the picture and yeah, I'd keep a map in the glove box.

 

[dmboone25]

That is one big problem I have with the new turbos from Porsche with the 718 and 911. The performance is very impressive. Sound is very subjective. Some folks like it, some don't. But turbo replacement costs on a Porsche? Yikes! And the nature of the power delivery. Not my cup of tea, I mean my dram of scotch.

I guess I would just not be thinking, in terms of order of suspected failure, of the turbos if I were to buy a car like the 718 or 991.2. I would expect the parts to be well engineered (consistent with other Porsche parts) and give me a reasonable life of use. Coming from turbo BMW land, turbo failures aren't what you hear about on the 100K + mileage N54s/N55s.

I can understand those who don't like the addition of turbos because of the sound, or throttle sensitivity, or because they don't care about the environment...but these things aren't going to break down because of the turbos either. At least, I wouldn't expect that at all.

 

[Shannon Starr]

I guess I would just not be thinking, in terms of order of suspected failure, of the turbos if I were to buy a car like the 718 or 991.2. I would expect the parts to be well engineered (consistent with other Porsche parts) and give me a reasonable life of use. Coming from turbo BMW land, turbo failures aren't what you hear about on the 100K + mileage N54s/N55s.

I can understand those who don't like the addition of turbos because of the sound, or throttle sensitivity, or because they don't care about the environment...but these things aren't going to break down because of the turbos either. At least, I wouldn't expect that at all.

I would expect the users worried about that are in the minority. I do not think many buyers hold on to their cars that long or use them 12 months of the year or as daily drivers. I would use mine as a daily....but I work from home. I bought my BMW on June 7th of 2014. I just hit 10000 miles on it last week. I do maintenance once a year where they change the oil. I would be really surprised if turbo failure is a problem on any modern turbo car.

 

[dmboone25]

I would expect the users worried about that are in the minority. I do not think many buyers hold on to their cars that long or use them 12 months of the year or as daily drivers. I would use mine as a daily....but I work from home. I bought my BMW on June 7th of 2014. I just hit 10000 miles on it last week. I do maintenance once a year where they change the oil. I would be really surprised if turbo failure is a problem on any modern turbo car.

This is what I was saying earlier in the thread - anyone that deals with a used car or one that has high mileage knows that costly repairs can be part of the deal, especially with a Porsche. I just don't see turbos as being high on that list.

I expect most of the new-to-Porsche crowd will lease the 718s too...it will be interesting to watch.

 

[Shannon Starr]

Yep...its like the CVT transmission....which are bloody awful...but folks worry about those as well because they cannot be fixed if they break...you have to replace them. Thing is they have evolved now and the chances of them breaking are pretty low during the life of the car.

 

[chows4us]

I would expect the parts to be well engineered (consistent with other Porsche parts) and give me a reasonable life of use. .

Do you guys know any history here? Lets talk recent history.

PDK is supposed to be a lifetime part. Here is a list, obviously not inclusive, of failures, http://www.planet-9.com/automotive-off-topic/103083-pdk-failures-gather-data-here.html Now out of warranty, this is about a $18K item to fix.

So you expect the parts to be well-engineered? Why?

Do you think the IMS failure car owners thought the same thing before the lawsuit? Porsche Settles IMS Class-Action Lawsuit, Excludes My Boxster S Oh yeah, those were Boxsters too and 996. Read https://www.oregonpca.org/resources/ims-bearing-the-full-story/

Do you think the Cayenne owners thought the same thing before their lawsuit? https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit.../closed-settlements/25041-porsche-cayenne-cooling-tube-class-action-settlement/

I'm not saying they are not well engineered. Only open one's eyes. Stuff happens.

 

[dmboone25]

I'm not saying they are not well engineered. Only open one's eyes. Stuff happens.

But...it hasn't yet...the 718 isn't even widely disseminated in Cayman form as of today.

And PDKs are available on the 981 as well, right? I mean, I am not sure what that list proves...

No one will decide NOT to buy one because they're worried the turbos are going to fail.

 

[fast1]

In this same thread, you previously said: The gain in HP and faster 0 - 60 are irrelevant to me. <snip> Moreover, since I won't be taking my car to any dragstrip nor engage in street racing, a coupe of tenths of a second means nothing to me.
So fine, maybe you said it was "irrelevant" and "means nothing to me", rather than it's "unimportant", but that's a pretty narrow distinction.

And Chow has said in this thread: Performance numbers, at a certain point, became meaningless. Why? How many 718 buyers will do club racing with their cars? No? Then what does it matter?
And even earlier in this thread, in reference to "1. In the low RPM ranges the 718 seemed to be waiting to accelerate. Just giving it a little gas made it jump and the acceleration is great.", Chow said: At least I would never buy a car based upon #1... (but other items from list) are, of course, more attuned to what a sports car is supposed to do.

I'm pretty confident this isn't an exhaustive list of such statements, (and I'm only listing them as examples, not to pick on specific posters, because there are many offenders), so I don't think my statement was a straw man at all.

Also, six-a-holics. Just wanted to say that again.

-Brett

I appreciate your point of view, and I should have written that a couple of tenths of a second in 0-60 doesn't represent a significant enough performance improvement to motivate me to buy a 718, especially when coupled with the issue I have with a 4 cylinder turbo engine. I referred to the dragstrip since if I did participate in drag racing, a coupe of tenths of second in 0-60 would be far more important.
Finally, I freely confess to being a six-a-holic. That six cylinder engine is what attracted many of us to Porsche in the first place.

 

[Stick_Figure]

No one will decide NOT to buy one because they're worried the turbos are going to fail.

I disagree. I ran out and bought a 981 because of the impending switch to turbo. My experience is that turbos are temperamental, highly stressed, and failure prone.

As I've mentioned in another thread, I would be more likely to buy a 718 if it was an NA flat 4, instead of turbocharged.

 

[dmboone25]

I disagree. I ran out and bought a 981 because of the impending switch to turbo. My experience is that turbos are temperamental, highly stressed, and failure prone.

As I've mentioned in another thread, I would be more likely to buy a 718 if it was an NA flat 4, instead of turbocharged.

But is the reluctance based in your preference for NA over FI? If so, I understand and that makes sense.

I just don't know where the idea originates that the turbos themselves would be at the top of the list for longevity concerns. At least, that was never towards the top of the list when I had turbo cars (I've had 4).

 

[Stick_Figure]

But is the reluctance based in your preference for NA over FI? If so, I understand and that makes sense.

I just don't know where the idea originates that the turbos themselves would be at the top of the list for longevity concerns. At least, that was never towards the top of the list when I had turbo cars (I've had 4).

It's not just the turbo itself. Head gaskets, piston rings, cooling system components are all stressed. With my one and only turbocharged car, all of these things gave me trouble at about 50k miles. If the cost of repairing a Porsche was more reasonable, I might have been willing to gamble on this.

As for the sound of the flat 6, it was low on my list of things that I cared about. Now that I've had the car for a while, I have to admit that the sound is intoxicating, and I would miss it.

 

[ralarcon]

It's not just the turbo itself. Head gaskets, piston rings, cooling system components are all stressed. With my one and only turbocharged car, all of these things gave me trouble at about 50k miles. If the cost of repairing a Porsche was more reasonable, I might have been willing to gamble on this.

As for the sound of the flat 6, it was low on my list of things that I cared about. Now that I've had the car for a while, I have to admit that the sound is intoxicating, and I would miss it.

When you have been listening to it for 16 years, when they take it away it is a deal breaker. But that is just me.

Cheers

 

[erik_plus8]

When you have been listening to it for 16 years, when they take it away it is a deal breaker. But that is just me.

Cheers

Or dreamt about it for 30 years before being able to buy a flat 6 car at age of 40. Deal breaker also for me. New mid engined Porsches are no longer interesting to me. If/when I get the trade-in itch the GTS will be replaced by a used GT4, a .2 GT3 (if M/T, and if I can afford, and if my dealer lets me get on the list, ...). But for now I am just too happy I pulled the trigger in time.

 

[Gary Rhine]

I just don't know where the idea originates that the turbos themselves would be at the top of the list for longevity concerns. At least, that was never towards the top of the list when I had turbo cars (I've had 4).

Since turbos have been nearly perfected it is easy to find a slew of references to the fact that the internal combustion engine is not going away anytime soon for that reason. Turbos have saved it every time there is a new gas crunch. The hybrids and e-cars are just going to have to settle for niche.

 

[fast1]

It's not just the turbo itself. Head gaskets, piston rings, cooling system components are all stressed. With my one and only turbocharged car, all of these things gave me trouble at about 50k miles. If the cost of repairing a Porsche was more reasonable, I might have been willing to gamble on this. ...

I believe that turbos on appliance cars have been very dependable. The problems come when the owners of performance cars decide to increase the HP of their cars by 10%+ by increasing the boost.

 

[Stick_Figure]

I believe that turbos on appliance cars have been very dependable. The problems come when the owners of performance cars decide to increase the HP of their cars by 10%+ by increasing the boost.

An interesting article:

Study finds increasing problems with 4-cylinder engines - Torque News

If I bought a turbo Fusion, and the turbo crapped out, no big deal. I suspect that the bill for a similar repair on a Porsche will approach five figures. I'll be happy with my 981 until an electric roadster comes along.

 

[Shannon Starr]

An interesting article:

Study finds increasing problems with 4-cylinder engines - Torque News

If I bought a turbo Fusion, and the turbo crapped out, no big deal. I suspect that the bill for a similar repair on a Porsche will approach five figures. I'll be happy with my 981 until an electric roadster comes along.

That is interesting. Every car I have owned over the last 20 years has been a 4 cylinder and never had engine or transmission trouble on any of them. I have to admit I have never driven one over 100000 miles either. I think your problem was not the Turbo, but the manufacturer.

 

[fast1]

An interesting article:

Study finds increasing problems with 4-cylinder engines - Torque News

If I bought a turbo Fusion, and the turbo crapped out, no big deal. I suspect that the bill for a similar repair on a Porsche will approach five figures. I'll be happy with my 981 until an electric roadster comes along.

Great find. The following sentence from your article caught my attention: the study found that 4-cylinder engines have increased their problem rate by nearly 10 problems per 100 vehicles.

 

[chows4us]

I just don't know where the idea originates that the turbos themselves would be at the top of the list for longevity concerns. At least, that was never towards the top of the list when I had turbo cars (I've had 4).

It's not in of itself. Rather, its just an additional part, and the associated hardware, that can break. Complexity breeds breakdown.

There was a time when "turbo" meant something. It was reserved for the most expensive car in the lineup. It was THE halo car of the brand. Whether it be the lowly Toyota MR2 Turbo, top of the line for the MR2 or the 930 Turbo, a supercar of the day, it was reserved for the fastest car of the model lineup. Today, its an appliance standard, a means to reduce emissions.

 

[Brett_Coon]

But understand there is a much deeper meaning to this. In the late 50s into and through the mid-70s, significant changes in low end accelerations WERE meaningful. A sub 8 sec car was fast. A sub 7 sec car was very fast. So shaving off 0.2 sec meant something. Today, a Camry can run sub 7 sec.

Actually, a 0.2 sec improvement means a lot more now that cars are faster.

The deeper meaning is that many people here stubbornly refuse to acknowledge any advantages of the 718 vs 981, even something as measurable and fundamental to a sports car as acceleration and lap times.

It's fine and even reasonable to believe the acceleration, horsepower, low-end torque, and lap times aren't a significant enough change to offset the loss of six cylinders or addition of a turbo. I'm pretty undecided on that point myself. And I tend to agree the improvement isn't enough (by itself) to warrant selling a perfectly good 981 to upgrade. But arguing the improvements are "meaningless" is kind of silly.

I wonder what everyone did before GPS? Hmm.

Please. This complaint is so old its kids are driving (probably turbos). Next you'll scoff at people who want air conditioning, padded seats, or horseless carriages.

You need to get the data from the car makers. Data is needed. e.g. Baked turbo on the menu for more drivers | Motoring News | Honest John Turbos failing at double the rate.

According to the link, that data isn't from the car makers, either, but instead from a private warranty company. Is it more legit because it supports the "turbos are bad" narrative?