[NewEvidence]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

The 718 will sell well at 30k + USD, MSRP. Which is what this entry 4 cyl. turbo car is worth. Otherwise at current MSRP, add simple options and you have a car in the 80 to 90K price ? That is just ludicrous. Worse value for the money of any sports car in the U.S. The car used to be compared, (981), to a 911. Now it is compared to a Subaru Impreza. What a joke.

Cheers

Porsche intended to draw a thick, red line between their entry-level sports car and the 911.

They did a fine job of it. Perhaps a little too fine.

 

[chows4us]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Porsche's decision to move to a turbo-charged engine completely alters the driving experience. "Yes, but look at all this beautiful low-end torque the new engine delivers!", they say. "Who cares?", I reply. "Gone is the linear, precise application of power that matched the 981 chassis so perfectly

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

 

[Noah Fect]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

It's true that the flat sixes are not especially smooth at power delivery, but it's also true that torque curves tell about 15% of the story for turbocharged engines. You'd need a four-dimensional graph that includes both time and load to accurately represent the "torque curve" of a turbo.

Then there's the sound, refinement and sense of precision that drivers expect when spending $60K-$80K and up, which no four-cylinder can ever provide.

 

[unconscionable]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Not to change the subject, but the Apple Watch is among the best selling watches in the world, and plenty of watch enthusiasts own them. Even the guys at Hodinkee have good things to say about it.

I own an Apple Watch, but I was specifically referring to the crazy $20k rose gold versions. Are watch enthusiasts really buying those? Anyway... Sorry to engage in tangential convo.

 

[dennisg]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

When linear response is being referred to here, it is not referring to the torque curve (i.e., torque relative to rpms) but torque relative to throttle position. In a NA car, if you open the throttle a little bit more, you get a little bit more power. In a turbo, you open the throttle a little bit more, nothing happens initially, and then you get a huge torque push. Obviously a NA engine isn't completely linear in this regard, but it is much closer than a turbo car.

 

[chows4us]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

When linear response is being referred to here, it is not referring to the torque curve (i.e., torque relative to rpms) but torque relative to throttle position. In a NA car, if you open the throttle a little bit more, you get a little bit more power. In a turbo, you open the throttle a little bit more, nothing happens initially, and then you get a huge torque push. Obviously a NA engine isn't completely linear in this regard, but it is much closer than a turbo car.

OK, I'll buy that explanation. Thanks

 

[unconscionable]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Will the 718 sell well? No, I don't believe it will. But I don't think Porsche really cares. I believe Porsche executives made a conscious decision to protect the identity of their one and only Holy Grail sports car, the 911, and see the 718 as... somewhat of a low-volume, necessary annoyance. The 718, with a downsized engine that, on paper at least, provides terrific fuel mileage and helps Porsche meet their overall fleet fuel savings targets. And the 718 provides a lower cost entry point to hook new buyers into the Porsche sports car family. Meaningfully increasing sales of the 718 isn't particularly important to them. That's the job of the 911.

I believe Porsche will continue to pour their resources into the 911 model line-up and will offer even more variants, all offered at exquisitely profitable price points (I believe the current 911 line-up covers more than 20 separate models, right?) They see the 911 as both the beating heart of the Porsche brand and a symbol that gives them a license to print money. And they are right, of course, because it is both of these things. And they've made sure to protect it. Would consumers be willing to pay such price premiums for their Cayennes and Macans if these SUVs weren't tied to the iconic Porsche 911's pedigree? I doubt it.

And your point about the 911 Turbo versus the GT3 is spot on. Two amazing 911s, but each delivers a very different driving experience and aimed at two different kinds of enthusiasts.

The CAFE point is extremely valid here. But I also believe having a lower model sports car hedges against economic downturns. Porsche may have learned from the '80s and '90s.

And precisely because Porsche sells everything a-la-carte (go build a Mustang Shelby GT350. See how many options there are), even their lowly sports car is profitable. Imagine the gross margins on carbon fiber trim, a red seat belt for $350, or navigation software for $2000.

I think most people would put Mercedes-Benz in the same category as Porsche in terms of brand equity and sophistication. Look how many lower level models they've crapped out lately. The C-class is glamorous compared to the GLA, CLA, and the upcoming B class. And the CLA is an awful car. But Mercedes is happy to sell them alongside $220k S-class cabriolets.

Are Porsche buyers slightly more discerning and sophisticated?

Maybe once upon a time. But with so many Macans and Cayennes, Porsche is now serving a completely different customer. The 718 seems to suit that change in sales philosophy.

So my prediction is that despite our grumblings, the 718 will increase sales by quite a bit for the segment. It's still the only rear-mid-engine sports car one can buy under $75k along with the impossibly-difficult-to-live-with Alfa 4C. And the power increases will appeal to a new kind of buyer that can now legitimately see it as a Corvette alternative with a better nameplate.

Chinese sales of Porsche have grown 24% from 2014-2015. European sales are just a few thousand vehicles behind US sales. Do either of those two markets care about the 4-cylinder? I don't know the answer. Europeans practically invented the downsizing craze and fuel is prohibitively expensive there.

All this is to say that this move is going to work for Porsche. As always, the purists get the shaft. Our only recourse is to put our money elsewhere. Porsche will sell more cars. They'll lower CAFE. They'll charge more money. They'll create hardcore variants like the GTS or "RS 60". They'll tell people how fast it is around the Nordschleife. They'll sell hats and merchandise. They'll get pats on the back for pioneering such a paradigm shift (even though Alfa beat them to it).

And for us, we are doomed to wander, deciding if we should board the train or not to our inevitable fates.

For me, I'm not boarding that train. I would give a 911 Turbo or GT3 a go, but I'm more inclined to go for a Jaguar F-Type SVR, Z06, or Viper (if it lasts another year). That's sad, because I truly adore Porsche and everything for which the company stands.

This is one of the reasons few people shart on the 911 Turbo or GT2. Sure, they're turbo motors, but they're so damn powerful that we accept the exchange. Though for years, automotive journalists and owners alike have been dismayed at the 911 Turbo's lack of driving character compared to similarly priced vehicles and its younger brother, the GT3.

Actually I believe the primary reason is that not many people have $200K - $300K for a car, especially one that is a two seater.

Probably, but even on popular forums like 6speedonline, there's universal praise for the cars seen as the pinnacle of the Porsche tree of offerings. Never driven a Turbo. Have you?

Well, that would price it below a (loaded) Miata. I test drove the new Miata, the fit and finish is well below any Porsche.

Without the "Porsche" name, I'd expect the 718 to start at $45k. The base price isn't what gets me, it's the escalation that happens when you add in all the features that come standard on any Civic.

$45k doesn't get you much either. A Ford Focus RS will ring in just under that. A BMW Z4 with the 240 HP motor is $50,000. And an Audi TT roadster with the base motor is $46,000. So I think $50-55k is a fair starting price, but we know with options it will swell to $75-80. That's the worst part.

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

I guess it's fair to say the power delivery is more predictable even if it's not linear. We know what happens after 5500 or below it.

 

[fast1]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Probably, but even on popular forums like 6speedonline, there's universal praise for the cars seen as the pinnacle of the Porsche tree of offerings. Never driven a Turbo. Have you?

My neighbor has a 991 Turbo S which I have driven several times on the street, and one time on the track. If sheer acceleration is what at the top of anyone's wish list, then the Turbo S is the right choice. In my case I gravitate more to the GT3, but settle for the 981S. I just can't justify the $150K expenditure for a GT3 since I'm fortunate to have a couple of track days a year. Not to be critical of anyone's selection, but a GT3 which is driven only on the street is a waste of money unless the owner has a complete disregard for posted speed limits.

 

[chows4us]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

The CAFE point is extremely valid here. But I also believe having a lower model sports car hedges against economic downturns. Porsche may have learned from the '80s and '90s.

???? late 1970s - 1990 entry level car sales absolutely buried 911 sales, sometimes by 4:1 margins. They ALL failed. ALL of them. Only the 911 survived. If anything, they learned to forget about the entry level cars and build 911s.

Cafe is meaningless. Nobody cares. They pay the fines and move on. You pay the fines now.

They'll lower CAFE.

THEY do not care. They care about EU carbon fines at 95 euro per gram. But its the same idea.

even on popular forums like 6speedonline, there's universal praise for the cars seen as the pinnacle of the Porsche tree of offerings. Never driven a Turbo. Have you?

This is a Cayman forum. Your expectations in how people view life need to be reversed from the rest of the pcar world

 

[NewEvidence]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

In simplest terms, naturally aspirated engines deliver power on demand. That is to say, when your foot depresses the accelerator, the engine responds with a corresponding amount of power. Depress it a little, get a little power. Depress it a lot, get a lot of power. And the power delivery is comparatively immediate and constant. Likewise, when you lift off the accelerator, power delivery is immediately cut.

Turbo-charged engines, on the other hand, do not deliver power on demand. When your foot depresses the accelerator, there is delay before the power comes on. This is what is called turbo-lag. And when the power does come on, it hits with a wallop. Likewise, when you lift off the accelerator, the engine does not come off boost immediately. It takes time for the boost to bleed off through the waste gate.

On modern high-end applications at Porsche and Ferrari, for instance, engineers have been successful at minimizing the effects of turbo-lag by employing a variety of design elements. There isn't much turbo-lag in a 911 Turbo or Ferrari 488 (I haven't driven the 488 yet, so I am relating what I've read.) But it can never be completely eliminated because the process, by definition, uses exhaust gas to drive the impeller which forces air into the engine.

How unruly can be turbo-charged engines? Here's what Hurley Haywood had to say about his experiences racing those early turbo-charged Porches in an interview with Car and Driver from 2013:

For helping Porsche win the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1977, veteran Porsche jockey Hurley Haywood received a brand-new ’77 930 Turbo as a gift from the factory. “It was over the top on the road—a 935 race car for the street.”

Many other early Turbo owners also found it “over the top.” Lacking Haywood’s talent, they would end up spinning it into the weeds, flipping it onto its roof, or both. So we asked Haywood how to handle the early Turbos?

Step One: Corner Entry
Nothing changes. Keep the normal line, turn-in point, and corner-entry speed.

Step Two: Preventive Maintenance
Instead of waiting to clip the apex to get back on the throttle, the Turbo demands that you do so before the apex. So Haywood says: “Get on the throttle earlier in the corner, by 50 percent or so. Massage or feather the throttle. The goal is to have boost ready.”

Step Three: Going . . . Going . . . Gone
When the apex finally does arrive, if you’ve kept the boost at the ready, you can then add in more throttle and power without having a chassis-disrupting surge of turbo awesomeness. “With the single turbo, there’s tons of lag,” our man says. “Anticipate the lag and manage the on-off power delivery so that it’s delivered in the right place. You can’t have the power right away.”

Many owners didn’t keep the turbocharger spooled, so when they did hit the gas, the abrupt arrival of the boost would kick out the rear tires violently. The driver would lift in hopes of retaining grip, but the 911’s rear would just keep trying to overtake the front. Whale tail, meet tree.

----------------------------------------

"On-off power delivery..." That is the best explanation of the non-linear nature of a turbo I've ever read.

 

[Wolfpack987]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

If the "estimated" EPA fuel ratings are found to be the actual fuel ratings, then what's all this non-sense about CAFE have to do with anything? It looks like fuel efficiency stayed the same or got worse.

 

[Knobcrk]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Well, that would price it below a (loaded) Miata. I test drove the new Miata, the fit and finish is well below any Porsche.

Without the "Porsche" name, I'd expect the 718 to start at $45k. The base price isn't what gets me, it's the escalation that happens when you add in all the features that come standard on any Civic.

Almost 700 dollars to have your spedometer a different color!!!

No matter what I do I can't get the price of extras less than 13k and its like 5 items.

 

[chows4us]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

In simplest terms, naturally aspirated engines deliver power on demand. That is to say, when your foot depresses the accelerator, the engine responds with a corresponding amount of power. Depress it a little, get a little power. Depress it a lot, get a lot of power. And the power delivery is comparatively immediate and constant. Likewise, when you lift off the accelerator, power delivery is immediately cut.

Turbo-charged engines, on the other hand, do not deliver power on demand. When your foot depresses the accelerator, there is delay before the power comes on. This is what is called turbo-lag. And when the power does come on, it hits with a wallop. Likewise, when you lift off the accelerator, the engine does not come off boost immediately. It takes time for the boost to bleed off through the waste gate.

On modern high-end applications at Porsche and Ferrari, for instance, engineers have been successful at minimizing the effects of turbo-lag by employing a variety of design elements. There isn't much turbo-lag in a 911 Turbo or Ferrari 488 (I haven't driven the 488 yet, so I am relating what I've read.) But it can never be completely eliminated because the process, by definition, uses exhaust gas to drive the impeller which forces air into the engine.

How unruly can be turbo-charged engines? Here's what Hurley Haywood had to say about his experiences racing those early turbo-charged Porches in an interview with Car and Driver from 2013:

For helping Porsche win the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1977, veteran Porsche jockey Hurley Haywood received a brand-new ’77 930 Turbo as a gift from the factory. “It was over the top on the road—a 935 race car for the street.”

Many other early Turbo owners also found it “over the top.” Lacking Haywood’s talent, they would end up spinning it into the weeds, flipping it onto its roof, or both. So we asked Haywood how to handle the early Turbos?

Step One: Corner Entry
Nothing changes. Keep the normal line, turn-in point, and corner-entry speed.

Step Two: Preventive Maintenance
Instead of waiting to clip the apex to get back on the throttle, the Turbo demands that you do so before the apex. So Haywood says: “Get on the throttle earlier in the corner, by 50 percent or so. Massage or feather the throttle. The goal is to have boost ready.”

Step Three: Going . . . Going . . . Gone
When the apex finally does arrive, if you’ve kept the boost at the ready, you can then add in more throttle and power without having a chassis-disrupting surge of turbo awesomeness. “With the single turbo, there’s tons of lag,” our man says. “Anticipate the lag and manage the on-off power delivery so that it’s delivered in the right place. You can’t have the power right away.”

Many owners didn’t keep the turbocharger spooled, so when they did hit the gas, the abrupt arrival of the boost would kick out the rear tires violently. The driver would lift in hopes of retaining grip, but the 911’s rear would just keep trying to overtake the front. Whale tail, meet tree.

----------------------------------------

"On-off power delivery..." That is the best explanation of the non-linear nature of a turbo I've ever read.

I appreciate you taking the time to research all that and the explanation of a widowmaker is turbo 101 from 1977, which I knew in 1977. So thanks for that. I had responded in post # 166 that I then understand he wasn't talking torque curves but throttle position so I was cool with that as clearly the 3.4/3.6/3.8 and I presume 4.2 are hardly linear in any way, unlike the existing turbo torque curves which are flatland and you are not increasing acceleration as RPMs rise. But kudos for you for taking the time to dig out all that stuff.

BTW, this is not true There isn't much turbo-lag in a 911 Turbo.

According to Pete, Walter Rohrl feels the turbo lag in a Turbo S is worth two feet. I suspect the turbo lag in a 718 will be far far greater than in the flagship car in the lineup

The turbo's lack of throttle precision makes the car harder to place, because when he [Walter Rohrl] goes for the throttle he's never sure how much drift he'll get. I asked him how much less accurately he could place the car due to this- six inches, or 1 foot?

"I would say...." Walter thought for a moment, pregnant pause as he considered an answer before turning to face me fully, still at speed: "Two Feet". .... When we talk about turbo "lag" or throttle delay with the upcoming turbo cars it's at this level. If you're using the throttle to initiate and dial a drift then the lag or lower response from the newest generation of turbos is still an issue."

Of course, to the average consumer this is meaningless but to say there is no lag simply is not true, at least according to The Man, who should know And you can take it to the bank if he feels lag in a 991.1 Turbo S, a car costing one third as much won't have anywhere near as such precision.


But all this 718 bashing is getting old. Nobody is going to care. They make money or don't. They sell cars or don't. Consumers need to get over this. They aint going to change because of some people complaining. They got bigger problems to worry about.

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Of course, to the average consumer this is meaningless but to say there is no lag simply is not true, at least according to The Man, who should know And you can take it to the bank if he feels lag in a 991.1 Turbo S, a car costing one third as much won't have anywhere near as such precision.


But all this 718 bashing is getting old. Nobody is going to care. They make money or don't. They sell cars or don't. Consumers need to get over this. They aint going to change because of some people complaining. They got bigger problems to worry about.

Amen, Chows.

Porsche AG would have run focus groups and done research during development that would have provided a pretty good idea of how much FI 4-pot pushback there would be, and what segment(s) of the market would be vocal. Whether there is a sales threshold under which they pull the plug on the Boxtser/Cayman, or this is just a stopgap measure before unveiling a new FI/4-pot/hybrid electric (or a full electric) down the road, only Porsche knows. They don't care that a few normally grovelling media types are jumping on the "woe is me it's a 4-cylinder" bandwagon (same as the electric steering tempest in a teacup), or that 20 or 200 or 2000 current and former Cayman/Boxster owners wish it had a flat-six. Seriously people...get a grip: the money people here spend on Porsches is a rounding error in their global marketing budget. A P9er could set themselves on fire in their 981 in Times Square as a protest and it won't change a thing. Porsche will do what it plans to do.

I'm still looking forward to a test drive of the 718 BS, and may still buy one. Even with the guttural exhaust note and turbo, it would be quicker than my 911 GTS and almost certainly put as big a grin on my face when I'm romping around the mountain roads in these parts. Oh wait, I'm actually LIKING the exhaust note and couldn't care less that it's 4 cylinders. But Porsche already knew that about me and the others among us that might actually buy one.

 

[duder13]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

But all this 718 bashing is getting old...

I'm not sure it's consistent to start a thread called "The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read" and then complain about 718 bashing in the same thread. I see nothing wrong with debating Porsche's decisions in this thread. Few (none?) of us own the car, yet, so what else are we going to talk about around here? :hilarious:

BTW, when is this forum going to be changed to the 982 forum?

 

[981FTW]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

What we need is a 718Not! forum.

 

[ralarcon]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Amen, Chows.

Porsche AG would have run focus groups and done research during development that would have provided a pretty good idea of how much FI 4-pot pushback there would be, and what segment(s) of the market would be vocal. Whether there is a sales threshold under which they pull the plug on the Boxtser/Cayman, or this is just a stopgap measure before unveiling a new FI/4-pot/hybrid electric (or a full electric) down the road, only Porsche knows. They don't care that a few normally grovelling media types are jumping on the "woe is me it's a 4-cylinder" bandwagon (same as the electric steering tempest in a teacup), or that 20 or 200 or 2000 current and former Cayman/Boxster owners wish it had a flat-six. Seriously people...get a grip: the money people here spend on Porsches is a rounding error in their global marketing budget. A P9er could set themselves on fire in their 981 in Times Square as a protest and it won't change a thing. Porsche will do what it plans to do.

I'm still looking forward to a test drive of the 718 BS, and may still buy one. Even with the guttural exhaust note and turbo, it would be quicker than my 911 GTS and almost certainly put as big a grin on my face when I'm romping around the mountain roads in these parts. Oh wait, I'm actually LIKING the exhaust note and couldn't care less that it's 4 cylinders. But Porsche already knew that about me and the others among us that might actually buy one.

It is what it is. Porsche Marketing achieved a clear demarcation, of the distinction between a 718, and a 911 by degrading the 718. That is a distinction admitted by their own development team. As for me , I cannot understand why anybody would want a degraded product, again, as admitted by their own development team.

Cheers

 

[gtsilver]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Afaic the 991.2 is a downgrade as well. Here there is minimal performance increase over the 991.1 to Make up for that small displacement turbo 6. Just because it's a 6 doesn't change it's turbo nature.

The only advantage I see of the turbo 6 over the turbo 4 is the sound. The turbo 6 sounded pretty good in the 991.2 S cab I drove. It still felt sluggish off boost and wasn't as engaging as the 3.8. The NA flat 3.8 6 also sounds much better.

It is what it is. Porsche Marketing achieved a clear demarcation, of the distinction between a 718, and a 911 by degrading the 718. That is a distinction admitted by their own development team. As for me , I cannot understand why anybody would want a degraded product, again, as admitted by their own development team.

Cheers

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

??? What does this mean. the 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 NA engines are far from linear in acceleration. Rather, they are the opposite as acceleration follows the torque curve, they are the opposite of linear. The come as a rush of acceleration over 5500. OTH, the turbo engines torque curves are flat as a tabletop, resulting in completely linear acceleration.

Not sure what you are saying here.

Yep - a flat torque "curve" - produces linear acceleration - thats what the HP equation defines e.g. constant rate of change in HP where the torque "curve" is flat (as long as the ECU map allows for linear throttle response inputs )

and, in reality, a cars engine (and often the character of the car itself) is defined by its torque curve - a Porsche NA engine, like a beautiful woman, has a series of wonderfully sculptured curves. In the case of the NA Porsches, these curves are defined by torque and rpm, reflecting sublime engineering e.g. as the engine comes on cam.

The strong pull to the redline delivered by Porsche NA engines is a direct function of the relatively slow drop off in torque at high rpm. A marked contrast to turbo charged engines which have very rapid drop offs in torque at moderate to high rpm

In the case of modern torque curves or rather "lines" as produced by modern DFI turbocharged engines - the torque "lines" are defined (or rather controlled) by the ECU (which controls boost etc), which in turn might as well be defined by the IT dept. :beerand in many cases is, with suitable engineering inputs)

 

[JCviggen]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

From Road and Track:To keep the engine (and turbo) from overheating, turbo engines inject excess gas under boost. It seems counterintuitive, but this "rich mixture" cools down combustion and reduces exhaust temperatures.

A bit late perhaps, but this isn't particularly accurate. It's not so much about overheating engine or turbo (the latter prefers to be as hot as possible) but the increased pressure and temperature of the mixture due to forced induction is more susceptible to knock/detonation. That's where the extra fuel comes in. Modern turbocharged engines (going back a decade or more) keep running 14.7:1 as long as they possibly can even under full boost for a limited amount of time. They do get richer when you rev them out all the way but they don't start enriching as soon as you see boost, far from it.

They do suffer in terms of efficiency from pumping losses and (less of an issue these days but still) lower static compression than comparable NA engines. Whether they are more efficient depends on how you drive them at the end of the day. On a race track they will more often than not be worse than a NA car in terms of fuel consumption but there are situations where smaller displacement does help. Either way 99.9% of the time an average person drives a turbocharged car the "running richer" thing isn't in play.