[ralarcon]

What no one has discussed yet ...

Wait until the turbos go, and they will go soon or later.

I hope the 718 buyers have DEEP pockets :helpme:

This won't be Subaru money to fix. It will be Porsche money to fix.

Good point !

Cheers

 

[MidEngine-Fan]

What no one has discussed yet ...

Wait until the turbos go, and they will go soon or later.

I hope the 718 buyers have DEEP pockets :helpme:

This won't be Subaru money to fix. It will be Porsche money to fix.

No, no, German engineering (tm), Porsches never break! At least my 914/4 has been reliable. My 986, on the other hand, leaked oil into coolant, in addition to needing AOS, alternator, water pump, door locks, coolant bottle, expensive brake job, pricey clutch, shocks, etc. But I had it for 90000 miles. It was fine for 30,000.

Porsches are great--just not cheap. Just two data points.

 

[fast1]

Simply pointing out the contradiction in your post.


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And what specifically is that contradiction? In the context of my post dismiss means treating as unworthy of serious consideration. I initially posted: I don't recall any poster dismissing the 718's performance advantage as being unimportant. What has been stated by me and many others is that we aren't about to trade-in our 6cyl 981 for a 4 cylinder 718 just because it is a couple of tenths of a second faster in a 0 - 60.

There are many reasons that prompt someone to buy a new car. Performance is just one of them. If performance were my sole motivation, I would have replaced my 997S with a 991S instead of a 981S, but I certainly didn't dismiss performance when I made my buying decision.

 

[Tommy]

Because this isn't a sports car. Its a LUXURY sports car.

It's a sports car. People turn it into a luxury car by ordering grossly overpriced options like leather wrapped speedometer needles and mahogany brake calipers.

 

[dmboone25]

What no one has discussed yet ...

Wait until the turbos go, and they will go soon or later.

I hope the 718 buyers have DEEP pockets :helpme:

This won't be Subaru money to fix. It will be Porsche money to fix.

But when will that be? Over 100K miles, right?

I bet Porsche is banking on the increased commonality of leases in general with this car - I could be wrong of course, but if I am not...then people only worry about the first 36-45K and 3ish years.

 

[chows4us]

But when will that be? Over 100K miles, right?

I bet Porsche is banking on the increased commonality of leases in general with this car - I could be wrong of course, but if I am not...then people only worry about the first 36-45K and 3ish years.

Even if the car is leased, sooner or later it will need new turbos. Someone will be paying for them. The best way to find out is go talk to the 911 Turbo owners who have had Turbos for decades. I'm sure the pricing is outrageous. I'll also guess leasing is far more common on Macans than sports cars although since they are turning this into washing machines, maybe not.

When? PDK is supposed to be a lifetime part, yet some people have paid out of pocket for new PDK and thats an $18K expensive. Parts break. It's inevitable. I think someone had a 500,000 mile 996 Turbo documented in Panamera. He had to go through some turbos. Here's a wild guess at cost BorgWarner Porsche 997TT BV50 Stock Replacement Turbo - Full-Race.com List $7K plus labor. Discount $4K on a 997.

 

[dmboone25]

Even if the car is leased, sooner or later it will need new turbos. Someone will be paying for them. The best way to find out is go talk to the 911 Turbo owners who have had Turbos for decades. I'm sure the pricing is outrageous. I'll also guess leasing is far more common on Macans than sports cars although since they are turning this into washing machines, maybe not.

When? PDK is supposed to be a lifetime part, yet some people have paid out of pocket for new PDK and thats an $18K expensive. Parts break. It's inevitable. I think someone had a 500,000 mile 996 Turbo documented in Panamera. He had to go through some turbos. Here's a wild guess at cost BorgWarner Porsche 997TT BV50 Stock Replacement Turbo - Full-Race.com List $7K plus labor. Discount $4K on a 997.

Totally get what you're saying - my point is that the average person who is moving up from an Audi/BMW/whatever to a Porsche is probably used to leasing cars. Or it is at least more probable than it once was. As a result, I think you won't have too many worrying about it at the first owner level - but I could be wrong. Now, when these end up on the used market...it will be a valid concern.

But I wouldn't expect the quality of the 718 to be worse than the 981 - and I went into the ownership experience knowing the out of pocket would be a lot more than I was used to paying. I just didn't care at the moment - it was about getting the dream car...I will deal with that other stuff when it comes up.

 

[OttawaSteve]

Even if the car is leased, sooner or later it will need new turbos.

No kidding. Turbocharger breakdowns are like the elephant in the room, but it seems that few can see the elephant. Those babies spin at hundreds of thousands of RPM. Anything moving that fast that gets that hot will eventually have reliability and maintenance challenges. As you infer, Porsche's are very well built, but when they break, they cost an arm and a leg to fix. It's not like popping a new turbo on your Tucson.

 

[fast1]

Even if the car is leased, sooner or later it will need new turbos. Someone will be paying for them. The best way to find out is go talk to the 911 Turbo owners who have had Turbos for decades

Maybe that's why Turbo owners put so few miles on their cars. It's not unusual to find 7 - 8 year old Turbos with fewer than 30K miles.

 

[Anand]

That is one big problem I have with the new turbos from Porsche with the 718 and 911. The performance is very impressive. Sound is very subjective. Some folks like it, some don't. But turbo replacement costs on a Porsche? Yikes! And the nature of the power delivery. Not my cup of tea, I mean my dram of scotch.

 

[MidEngine-Fan]

It's a sports car. People turn it into a luxury car by ordering grossly overpriced options like leather wrapped speedometer needles and mahogany brake calipers.

What?! How did I miss those in the configurator? And I thought leather vent slats were cool...

 

[K-Man S]

What?! How did I miss those in the configurator? And I thought leather vent slats were cool...

I found the burlwood and engraved sports needles particularly attractive... never seen a burl tree before, I imagine them to be burly...

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[Brett_Coon]

"I find it particularly risible when six-a-holics dismiss the 718's performance advantage as being unimportant to a real sports car. Performance isn't everything, of course, but it's a pretty big part of the traditional definition of "sports car".

This is a straw man argument. I don't recall any poster dismissing the 718's performance advantage as being unimportant. What has been stated by me and many others is that we aren't about to trade-in our 6cyl 981 for a 4 cylinder 718 just because it is a couple of tenths of a second faster in a 0 - 60.

In this same thread, you previously said: The gain in HP and faster 0 - 60 are irrelevant to me. <snip> Moreover, since I won't be taking my car to any dragstrip nor engage in street racing, a coupe of tenths of a second means nothing to me.
So fine, maybe you said it was "irrelevant" and "means nothing to me", rather than it's "unimportant", but that's a pretty narrow distinction.

And Chow has said in this thread: Performance numbers, at a certain point, became meaningless. Why? How many 718 buyers will do club racing with their cars? No? Then what does it matter?
And even earlier in this thread, in reference to "1. In the low RPM ranges the 718 seemed to be waiting to accelerate. Just giving it a little gas made it jump and the acceleration is great.", Chow said: At least I would never buy a car based upon #1... (but other items from list) are, of course, more attuned to what a sports car is supposed to do.

I'm pretty confident this isn't an exhaustive list of such statements, (and I'm only listing them as examples, not to pick on specific posters, because there are many offenders), so I don't think my statement was a straw man at all.

Also, six-a-holics. Just wanted to say that again.

-Brett

 

[digitalrurouni]

I like nav systems in a sports car. I don't get proper signal everywhere so yeah nav is important when I'm exploring roads. I don't care for a leather dash or seats or trim. Alcantara is great. I like carbon fiber everything hence the LWBS. If there was a carbon shifter and steering wheel I would get that too. And I'm definitely a six-a-holic! The 718 has an ugly rear and I don't like the crap motor they put in it. Is it faster than a 981? Duh it has to be! Or else it ain't progress! But I'd take a fractionally slower flat 6 naturally aspirated motor over a 4 cylinder turbo motor. That's why I bought a 981 Spyder and not a Nissan GT-R. Great car just not for me. Don't like the turbocharging in a sports car. I don't hate the 718. I just wish it didn't have that black stripe in the rear or the turbo motor. Here's hoping porsche leaves the gt3 models unmolested and they keep making limited runs of gt4 and Spyder in the future in six-a-holic formats!

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[Capercat]

No kidding. Turbocharger breakdowns are like the elephant in the room, but it seems that few can see the elephant. Those babies spin at hundreds of thousands of RPM. Anything moving that fast that gets that hot will eventually have reliability and maintenance challenges. As you infer, Porsche's are very well built, but when they break, they cost an arm and a leg to fix. It's not like popping a new turbo on your Tucson.

VW & Audi have been mass producing turbo cars for well over 10 years, I rarely hear of turbo failures, mostly its their DSG that has issues, but they have come a long way also.

 

[asolare]

VW & Audi have been mass producing turbo cars for well over 10 years, I rarely hear of turbo failures, mostly its their DSG that has issues, but they have come a long way also.

"Should you worry about owning a car or truck that’s turbocharged as more and more vehicles make this powertrain switch? For answers we reached out to some folks that closely monitor vehicle quality to find out what’s really going on out there.

Putting major fears to bed, Michael Karesh, developer of TrueDelta.com said, “I’m not seeing many turbocharger failures, at least not yet.” His quarterly quality survey includes responses from nearly 100,000 participants.

“A typical failure rate for a turbocharger is probably around one or two percent,” he said. According to Karesh, many of his participants’ vehicles typically have fewer than 100,000 miles on their odometers. He doesn’t have much data for cars that have gone farther than that. Still he said, “I would of expected [the failure rate] to be higher.”

In the TrueDelta survey turbocharged engines are generally pretty reliable but there are a few exceptions. “The main case [that] stuck out as being much higher than others was the 2008 BMW 535i,” said Karesh. This was the “first year of the turbocharged engine in the 5 Series.” Karesh said about one in six of these 535i models has had turbo-related issues over the past two years, though he cautioned that his sample size is small. Still, “It’s not a fluke, either,” he said. Curiously he said the failure rate in the 335i, which for the same year featured an identical engine, only has about a two percent failure rate."

 

[Delnari]

I'm okay with Porsche going turbo 4-cylinder in the Macan and maybe okay with it being in the regular Boxster/Cayman. For the love of God they should have found a way to let the "S" versions keep the non-turbo 6-cylinder. If they had, I might be driving a new Cayman S today; if I could afford GT4 that would be only choice today.

 

[OttawaSteve]

“According to Karesh, many of his participants’ vehicles typically have fewer than 100,000 miles on their odometers. He doesn’t have much data for cars that have gone farther than that."

Exactly. Porsche's also tend to be driven harder than your average family vehicle, although I would expect that the superior engineering and quality of our cars would offset that. I suppose that we will find out in 5-10 years.

 

[chows4us]

And Chow has said in this thread: Performance numbers, at a certain point, became meaningless. Why? How many 718 buyersecs will do club racing with their cars? No? Then what does it matter?

But understand there is a much deeper meaning to this. In the late 50s into and through the mid-70s, significant changes in low end accelerations WERE meaningful. A sub 8 sec car was fast. A sub 7 sec car was very fast. So shaving off 0.2 sec meant something. Today, a Camry can run sub 7 sec.

Once you got sub 6 sec, the power became not relevant to street. Below 5 sec you will not know the difference so much and around 4 sec, its over so fast your mind cant process it. I know at high rpms the needle is just a blur and a reasonable argument for PDK or one could be bouncing off the limiter.

So bragging rights for a 4.1 car vs 3.9 car mean nothing. High end numbers, say 80 - 130 mean ZERO in the US. That's jail time (at least in VA).

I like nav systems in a sports car. I don't get proper signal evevaywhere so yeah nav is important when I'm exploring roads.

I wonder what everyone did before GPS? Hmm.

VW & Audi have been mass producing turbo cars for well over 10 years, I rarely hear of turbo failures, mostly its their DSG that has issues, but they have come a long way also.

Why would you? The only way to know is to get the numbers from the dealers or indy shops.

Putting major fears to bed, Michael Karesh, developer of TrueDelta.com said, “I’m not seeing many turbocharger failures, at least not yet.” His quarterly quality survey includes responses from nearly 100,000 participants.

Meaningless data. Toyota alone sold what? 11,000,000 cars last year? Over 72,000,000 cars were sold in 2015. I'll guess more than half were turbos, probably more. That sample size is .003%? What does it mean? Nothing.

Further, that depends upon people knowing that website exists and being willing to report it. Most consumers who own washing machines know nothing about these websites nor care. You need to get the data from the car makers. Data is needed. e.g. Baked turbo on the menu for more drivers | Motoring News | Honest John Turbos failing at double the rate.

More important, you need Porsche failure rates. And my only point was that parts fail. Sooner or later it will fail and this part will not be like doing one of those $400 oil changes.

I think many buyers of older Porsches, say 2006 Caymans S cars selling for $20 - $25K today still do not understand they will be paying the maintenance on a $65K car. So when those turbos Co go, they will be paying Porsche money and it will hurt, an expense that did not exist before. Complexity means more parts that break. More money to fix.

 

[digitalrurouni]

I wonder what everyone did before GPS? Hmm.

Come on chow4us I am not gonna bust out a paper map! I am part of the digital generation I gotta get on with the times! Also I use the GPS as a safety feature too. Zoom in real close on a twisty road I have no prior knowledge about to get an idea about the turn that's coming up next. It helps sort of like rally driver pace notes in a way