[chows4us]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Since when Porsche has stopped being a business?

Read what I asked

If new customers buy one, PAG wins
If old customers buy one, PAG wins
If old customers won't buy a 718, some might be a 911. PAG wins
If old customers bail? No big loss. They have 5 times as many Macan customers. CUVs are obviously the cars sold and they are just expensive as the 718.

Win Win for PAG

And if the 960 comes in ... Win Win Win. The mid-engined guys get their dream car.

Every scenario is win win for PAG. New customers WILL buy this car. Old customers? Some will buy 911. Some will buy Macans. And if you really want a mid-engine car, buy the 960. There is a LOT of money out there just waiting to jump all over a FeFi. ALL this money will more than make up for any 718 loses.

Whether some consumers like it or not is no relevant. But Porsche has never wanted you to buy these cars. At first, they were needed to get out of the 1990 recession and pull the company out of near bankrupty. Those days are long gone. SUVs have taken over and this is a SUV company. Think about it. They WANT you to buy the more expensive cars. Want a cheap one? Get a Macan. Think about their marketing. And think about their success stories.

Admittedly it is a small fraction of sales, but it doesn't make any sense to spend R&D euros on new engines if the intention was to kill the car.

Well I didn't say it was their intention. I said no matter what happens, its win win. Some will buy 911. Some will buy Macans. And some will leave the marque. And some will buy FeFis.

Do they REALLY need an entry level sports car in todays world? E-Mission is coming. The future is NOT these gas guzzling, carbon spitting cars. That's yesterday. Read The Families at the Center of the Power Struggle at Volkswagen - SPIEGEL ONLINE The world has moved on and these guys are living in the past.

"Here's just one example of the kind of old thinking that will no longer fly. At the VW Group Night at the Geneva Motor Show at the beginning of June, all the company's units presented their cars in a former warehouse building. The music thumped, there was laser lighting and the managers of each unit drove their latest models onto the stage. Mathias Müller of Porsche arrived in a Cayman Gt4, which has 385 horsepower and can accelerate to a speed of 100 kilometers per hour (62 miles per hour) in four seconds; Rupert Stadler of Audi entered in an R3, which has 610 horsepower and can do the same in 3.2 seconds; Stephan Winkelmann of Laborghini, came in an Aventador Superveloce, which has 750 horsepower and can reach 100 kilometers per hour in 2.8 seconds. It was a classic example of boys with their toys -- who had the biggest, longest and strongest?


But it's no longer a world that younger people can identify with. Attitudes toward cars have changed. Many people no longer care about horsepower and speed. They care about zero-emissions automobiles ..."

Meet the future. E-Mission. Zero emissions. Out with the old. In with the new.

Maybe.

What we want is a Cayman like the GT4. What Porsche wants is to force us to buy 911s.

And what's sad is that after 10 years since the Cayman introduction, a lot of people refuse to believe that.

 

[MidEngine-Fan]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Yesterday I went by my Porsche dealership and looked at a 981 Black Edition. The salesman worked up some numbers and I decided to trade. I'm picking it up today.

I had trouble sleeping last night because I wasn't sure that I was doing the right thing. Should I get this car? Maybe I should wait and get a 718??? But the 981 Black Edition sorta' cool. It is a flat-six and one of the last flat-sixes to come off the line. But a flat-four turbo might be cool. After reading that I think I made the right decision.

I sincerely hope that the 718 succeeds. I'm not against it. I guess I am just not 100% for it right now. Maybe I will look at one three or four years down the road. :cheers:

I'm hoping for a full report on the new 981 so I can enjoy it vicariously.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[gtsilver]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

I test drove a 991.2 S Cab MT. And it was very underwhelming not terrible but meh, I thought there would be more torque based on the reviews. At least the engine note with the sport exhaust was actually pretty good. Still, I was so happy to get back into my 981 Spyder.

Honestly the Evo article sounded like it was written by a journalist who isn't on Porsche's payroll.

I test drove the new 911 in a few different configs last week. One of them was an S with sport exhaust.

I came away happier than ever with my car. Going in I was a little worried I'd leave with a whole lot of temptation to "upgrade" but while the power is certainly welcome, I think people vastly underestimate the impact that the noises a car makes have on the entertainment of driving them.

There's no getting around the fact that even with the sport exhaust, the cars are too quiet and not as dramatic.

 

[gtsilver]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Yes you are correct, Porsche no longer needs the Boxster/Cayman platform. They can do just fine selling 911s and SUVs. Still for many of us who have owned Boxsters and Caymans and have been mid engine Porsche fans since the inception of the Boxster, it's sad to see the platform go this way.

As far as zero emissions and all these other mandates. This is not the peoples will or a general trend or anything else. Yeah there are segment of the population that will buy an electric car some because its trend,y and others because they feel they are doing their part to curb emissions. So what?

Ferrari has a waiting list, Porsche's sports cars are selling well as are many others. Hot rodded editions from Porsche: GT3, GT4, Ford: GT350R/R, GT, GM: Corvette, Camaro SS, not to mention many of the other uber cars are hard to get. Fisker went under, Bugatti is still building cars. Male and even some of the female millennials I know love my Porsche. Little kids on the streets eyes light up when hear the exhaust and see the car pass. Sure there are the errant college kids that have been brainwashed by their **** professors and will prefer a smart vehicle to go along with their couture bum clothes, 12 dollar craft beers and gluten free vegan pizzas, but thats the few not the many. Plenty more enjoy Budweiser, McDonalds and a big ol engine.

*******************

Do they REALLY need an entry level sports car in todays world? E-Mission is coming. The future is NOT these gas guzzling, carbon spitting cars. That's yesterday. Read The Families at the Center of the Power Struggle at Volkswagen - SPIEGEL ONLINE The world has moved on and these guys are living in the past.

"Here's just one example of the kind of old thinking that will no longer fly. At the VW Group Night at the Geneva Motor Show at the beginning of June, all the company's units presented their cars in a former warehouse building. The music thumped, there was laser lighting and the managers of each unit drove their latest models onto the stage. Mathias Müller of Porsche arrived in a Cayman Gt4, which has 385 horsepower and can accelerate to a speed of 100 kilometers per hour (62 miles per hour) in four seconds; Rupert Stadler of Audi entered in an R3, which has 610 horsepower and can do the same in 3.2 seconds; Stephan Winkelmann of Laborghini, came in an Aventador Superveloce, which has 750 horsepower and can reach 100 kilometers per hour in 2.8 seconds. It was a classic example of boys with their toys -- who had the biggest, longest and strongest?


But it's no longer a world that younger people can identify with. Attitudes toward cars have changed. Many people no longer care about horsepower and speed. They care about zero-emissions automobiles ..."

Meet the future. E-Mission. Zero emissions. Out with the old. In with the new.

Maybe.



And what's sad is that after 10 years since the Cayman introduction, a lot of people refuse to believe that.

 

[Stringfellow]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Yesterday I went by my Porsche dealership and looked at a 981 Black Edition. The salesman worked up some numbers and I decided to trade. I'm picking it up today.

I had trouble sleeping last night because I wasn't sure that I was doing the right thing. Should I get this car? Maybe I should wait and get a 718??? But the 981 Black Edition sorta' cool. It is a flat-six and one of the last flat-sixes to come off the line. But a flat-four turbo might be cool. After reading that I think I made the right decision.

I sincerely hope that the 718 succeeds. I'm not against it. I guess I am just not 100% for it right now. Maybe I will look at one three or four years down the road. :cheers:

Congratulations!!!

 

[gcurnew]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Yes you are correct, Porsche no longer needs the Boxster/Cayman platform. They can do just fine selling 911s and SUVs. Still for many of us who have owned Boxsters and Caymans and have been mid engine Porsche fans since the inception of the Boxster, it's sad to see the platform go this way.

As far as zero emissions and all these other mandates. This is not the peoples will or a general trend or anything else. Yeah there are segment of the population that will buy an electric car some because its trend,y and others because they feel they are doing their part to curb emissions. So what?

Ferrari has a waiting list, Porsche's sports cars are selling well as are many others. Hot rodded editions from Porsche: GT3, GT4, Ford: GT350R/R, GT, GM: Corvette, Camaro SS, not to mention many of the other uber cars are hard to get. Fisker went under, Bugatti is still building cars. Male and even some of the female millennials I know love my Porsche. Little kids on the streets eyes light up when hear the exhaust and see the car pass. *********

Not at all interested in your political views. Also, you might want to check the terms you agreed to when you signed up to use the site: no political discussion of any kind allowed.

 

[RandR]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Porsche just seems absolutely determined to clip the Cayman's wings to make moving to a 911 the (obvious) choice.

Seriously, it had to be more expensive to create an all new engine than to allow the Cayman to share an engine with the 911s.

What we want is a Cayman like the GT4. What Porsche wants is to force us to buy 911s.

I agree with the sentiment, however to be fair, Porsche did give the Cayman the 911 engine e.g. the 3.4l as found in the 981S and GTS and the 3.8l as found in the Spyder and GT4 (allbeit with a small number of different parts and what amounts to different states of tune).

I think what Porsche have missed is the simple fact there are a number (possibly many) 981 owners that would buy a 981 for the same amount of money in preference to a 911 if the engines were the same (or at least very similar).

There are probably many people, like myself, that see the 911 as overly large, overly heavy with a horror story of an interior e.g. giant parcel shelf as a dash board, cluttered instrument cluster and useless back seats (unless you're called snow white and your family members are named sneezy, bashful, dopey, grumpy and happy etc) and thus prefer the simplicity and elegance of the 981 design.

On another point, at least in Australia, the Porsche "entry" level cars are the Cayenne and Macan with the advertising tag line of "The short cut to your dreams" - squarely aimed at those that need a badge to feel whole.

Anyhow, back to the article, the fact that EVO excoriated Porsche for the 718 is very telling. I will be attending the 718 unveiling over here in OZ and will provide some honest feedback (as others have done).

 

[digitalrurouni]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Not at all interested in your political views. Also, you might want to check the terms you agreed to when you signed up to use the site: no political discussion of any kind allowed.

Agreed and I would also like to add yuck to McDonald's and budweiser!

I for one welcome electric and alternative fuel vehicles. I adore a proper driving experience no matter what the modern propulsion system is. There are amazing turbocharged machines out there. Look at the 488! It's just gonna take folks some time and porsche a few iterations and then turbocharged cars will be widely accepted. Heck I hated the v6 turbo f1 era. But I love them now! They ain't slow and they sound great albeit different. Same will happen with the 718. Porsche aint stupid. If not then I will count myself lucky and fondly remember the days of yore when there was such a thing as an a naturally aspirated internal combustion engine!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[duder13]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Not at all interested in your political views. Also, you might want to check the terms you agreed to when you signed up to use the site: no political discussion of any kind allowed.

Agreed. And I inadvertently clicked the "like" symbol on that post, too. I guess there's no way to "unlike" a post. :wall:

 

[HassaanAbdeen]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Decide for yourself regarding 718 Boxster, date May 30, 2016 from Evo

why everything Porsche touches doesn’t always turn to gold

What’s it like to drive?

Disappointing. Underwhelming. Soul destroying.

If you, or a friend, ever owned an air-cooled VW Beetle you’ll immediately recognise the unsophisticated clatter when you hear a 2-litre Boxster for the first time. Unfortunately it’s no better from inside, where the tone switches from that of a Beetle run on a student’s budget to an Impreza turbo with a blown exhaust.

Then there’s the throttle response, which is far slower than expected and when hooked up to the PDK ’box brings the very worst out of the double-clutch unit. On a motorway or A-road with drive selected it will kick down two ratios as a matter of course at the smallest twitch of your right foot sending the engine into a thrashy and embarrassing flare of revs. Want to add 5mph to your speed to clear the middle lane of do-gooders? That will be three gears dropped

And that engine sound? Sadly it doesn’t get any better, actually it gets worse

New engine ruins the experience

Actually, I like the review... Sounds like it was written by Jeremey Clarkson, but truly the 718 is a disappointment following the stunning 981. Now how bad is the 718? Well, to each his own.

 

[HassaanAbdeen]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Gentlemen,
In respect to the Forum terms and rules, this is a reminder that no political discussions here are allowed. Therefore, I had to edit the violating posts to prevent the situation from escalating.

How does it feel when a Middle Eastern brings peace to the forum across the ocean? Ken, I expect a Noble Prize

Let's leave politics aside, guys, and enjoy our toys instead.

 

[chows4us]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

*******************

Hassaan has already taken care of this. I'm glad I didn't read your post last night before him. While he has removed the offending material, I know what it said.

As Ken has said many times, over and over again, and its a good analogy - think of this as his living room. You do not get to stand on a table and preach political agenda. You can argue technical facts. You can argue philosophy. You can not like an aspect of any of it and voice your displeasure . But you don't get to attack the political leanings of citizens because it doesn't fit your agenda or life view.

This is one of the cardinal tenets of the forum. No sex, no politics, no religion discussions of any kind. As we get closer in the election cycle, I expect people to slip up more and more, but I really suggest reading the Rules closely, because vacations will be coming if they are violated again.

Talk cars, talk technology. Thats cool. and as Hassaan said, enjoy your toys.

 

[Mike_in OH]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Read what I asked

If new customers buy one, PAG wins
If old customers buy one, PAG wins
If old customers won't buy a 718, some might be a 911. PAG wins
If old customers bail? No big loss. They have 5 times as many Macan customers. CUVs are obviously the cars sold and they are just expensive as the 718.

Win Win for PAG

And if the 960 comes in ... Win Win Win. The mid-engined guys get their dream car.

Every scenario is win win for PAG. New customers WILL buy this car. Old customers? Some will buy 911. Some will buy Macans. And if you really want a mid-engine car, buy the 960. There is a LOT of money out there just waiting to jump all over a FeFi. ALL this money will more than make up for any 718 loses.

Whether some consumers like it or not is no relevant. But Porsche has never wanted you to buy these cars. At first, they were needed to get out of the 1990 recession and pull the company out of near bankrupty. Those days are long gone. SUVs have taken over and this is a SUV company. Think about it. They WANT you to buy the more expensive cars. Want a cheap one? Get a Macan. Think about their marketing. And think about their success stories.



Well I didn't say it was their intention. I said no matter what happens, its win win. Some will buy 911. Some will buy Macans. And some will leave the marque. And some will buy FeFis.

Do they REALLY need an entry level sports car in todays world? E-Mission is coming. The future is NOT these gas guzzling, carbon spitting cars. That's yesterday. Read The Families at the Center of the Power Struggle at Volkswagen - SPIEGEL ONLINE The world has moved on and these guys are living in the past.

"Here's just one example of the kind of old thinking that will no longer fly. At the VW Group Night at the Geneva Motor Show at the beginning of June, all the company's units presented their cars in a former warehouse building. The music thumped, there was laser lighting and the managers of each unit drove their latest models onto the stage. Mathias Müller of Porsche arrived in a Cayman Gt4, which has 385 horsepower and can accelerate to a speed of 100 kilometers per hour (62 miles per hour) in four seconds; Rupert Stadler of Audi entered in an R3, which has 610 horsepower and can do the same in 3.2 seconds; Stephan Winkelmann of Laborghini, came in an Aventador Superveloce, which has 750 horsepower and can reach 100 kilometers per hour in 2.8 seconds. It was a classic example of boys with their toys -- who had the biggest, longest and strongest?


But it's no longer a world that younger people can identify with. Attitudes toward cars have changed. Many people no longer care about horsepower and speed. They care about zero-emissions automobiles ..."

Meet the future. E-Mission. Zero emissions. Out with the old. In with the new.

Maybe.



And what's sad is that after 10 years since the Cayman introduction, a lot of people refuse to believe that.

---
A lot of truth in this post.

When the 986 on the drawing boards, Porsche was in a way different place financially. The 911 was carrying the company, but sales were down and they almost went bang.
The 986 did it's job--bring in more buyers for the Porsche brand and eventually create more 911 buyers. Now, there are multiple other Porsche models covering other market niches while creating future 911 owners.
Can't help but think that makes the Boxster/Cayman models now a bit redundant since they have the SUV/sedans doing the same thing--bringing more buyers into the fold. Add to that, B/C sales continue to shrink suggesting this model has run it's course--outside of China--and may be relegated to the list of Porsche models no longer being made.
That will be a loss for the automotive enthusiast, but will likely go unnoticed by the majority of car buyers.

 

[Wolfpack987]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

It shouldn't be a surprise when there are concerns about the durability of small engines which produce high HP because of turbocharging. Porsche better hope that their new buyers are uninformed, and won't have any idea of how many cylinders produce the high HP and of course how that power is produced.

Well yes, obviously a smaller engine with more power, and turbocharger, could have questionable durability. I was more referring to the highlighted details pointing out that this 2.0 (and 2.5) liter powerplant is more complicated than most turbo 4s. 2 stage intercooler system, wrap around exhaust manifolds, active engine mounts to help quell vibrations - sounds like a nightmare to service.

Admittedly it is a small fraction of sales, but it doesn't make any sense to spend R&D euros on new engines if the intention was to kill the car. As someone pointed out, market focus may be more for Asia, China in particular, and less US. That would make more sense. They will sell more of everything in China. That is a win-win. So what if they don't sell a few Boxsters and Caymans in the US. China's huge growing market will probably more than make up for it. Other Asian countries as well. If we, here in the US don't like it, we can always 'upgrade' to the 911. No company spends R&D money on a product on which it does not expect to increase sales and market share globally. I see Audis, MBs and BMWs on the streets of Delhi and Bangalore. And not just the low end cars. And all crawling along at 5 kmph. A PDK Cayman with a turbo four will do just fine. Putting the top down in a Boxster in Delhi would be committing suicide. A most miserable place.

The US is far and away Porsche's biggest sports car market. China is just a blip on the radar in comparison. Sports cars don't sell over there, and this new 718 isn't going to change that. It's worth noting that Porsche has already been selling downsized engines in China to mediocre success.


I agree that politics don't belong in most automotive discussions, but all the engine downsizing being done by manufacturers is being done purely because of politics. So it's somewhat difficult to dance around that fact. Based on the science of it all I believe this is a fad of sorts and that in the long run we'll have plenty of new sporty petrol vehicle options for decades to come.

 

[Wolfpack987]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

---
A lot of truth in this post.

When the 986 on the drawing boards, Porsche was in a way different place financially. The 911 was carrying the company, but sales were down and they almost went bang.
The 986 did it's job--bring in more buyers for the Porsche brand and eventually create more 911 buyers. Now, there are multiple other Porsche models covering other market niches while creating future 911 owners.
Can't help but think that makes the Boxster/Cayman models now a bit redundant since they have the SUV/sedans doing the same thing--bringing more buyers into the fold. Add to that, B/C sales continue to shrink suggesting this model has run it's course--outside of China--and may be relegated to the list of Porsche models no longer being made.
That will be a loss for the automotive enthusiast, but will likely go unnoticed by the majority of car buyers.

For almost all of Porsche's history they've offered more than one sports car offering. And sports cars are their identity. They'd be foolish to ignore their heritage and piss on their brand image by continually diluting the brand. It will catch up to them eventually, just as it's doing the same to BMW now.

 

[K-Man S]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Agreed. And I inadvertently clicked the "like" symbol on that post, too. I guess there's no way to "unlike" a post. :wall:

If you click the like icon you can after 5 seconds click it again to unlike something. As Hassaan has said no politics people! TIA!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[Von Hanstein]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

Yesterday I went by my Porsche dealership and looked at a 981 Black Edition. The salesman worked up some numbers and I decided to trade. I'm picking it up today.

I had trouble sleeping last night because I wasn't sure that I was doing the right thing. Should I get this car? Maybe I should wait and get a 718??? But the 981 Black Edition sorta' cool. It is a flat-six and one of the last flat-sixes to come off the line. But a flat-four turbo might be cool. After reading that I think I made the right decision.

I sincerely hope that the 718 succeeds. I'm not against it. I guess I am just not 100% for it right now. Maybe I will look at one three or four years down the road. :cheers:

I did the exact same thing last year. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my 2011 Cayman S, but I traded for a 2015 Cayman GTS. Wanted one of the last 6 cylinders in a Cayman. Do not regret my decision. Congratulations on your purchase. Enjoy the drive!

 

[classj]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

For almost all of Porsche's history they've offered more than one sports car offering. And sports cars are their identity. They'd be foolish to ignore their heritage and piss on their brand image by continually diluting the brand. It will catch up to them eventually, just as it's doing the same to BMW now.

I can't wait to drive one and put the bench racing to an end. Unfortunately I am going in negative minded which is never good.

The .2 version of any car is usually better than the .1. In this case, I am not so sure.

I feel that if 4 cyl was the direction they wanted to go, they should have offered it as a base model only and left the S as a straight 6 (or the GTS).

Regarding re-naming the car to 718. It has to be the silliest thing I can imagine. If they did a total redesign, fine. But to take a life cycle refresh and slap a new name on it?

Sounds like VW's Golf/Rabbit mentality at play. After all, that worked out just great. :hilarious:

 

[Mike_in OH]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

For almost all of Porsche's history they've offered more than one sports car offering. And sports cars are their identity. They'd be foolish to ignore their heritage and piss on their brand image by continually diluting the brand. It will catch up to them eventually, just as it's doing the same to BMW now.

+1 on BMW; their entry level cars even in a base setup were a hoot to drive (08 E90 owned for 7 years) the newer ones seem to be larger maybe a bit more stylish but seem diminished when driving.

Porsche--we'll see. Looking that their production numbers, they know where their money comes from and it isn't from sports cars.
There has to be a a minimum sales number for each of these models to justify their existence. In years past, there were carry over parts from the B/C models that were used in the 911 that helped keep the model costs down; with the engine change over, that's going to be reduced significantly. 4 banger in a 911? I can't imagine that anytime soon if ever.

 

[Stick_Figure]

Re: The Worst Review of any Porsche I've read

For almost all of Porsche's history they've offered more than one sports car offering.

If turbos are the new norm, I think Porsche's best chance at making a repeat buyer out of me is to build an electric 2-seater. The way I use the car is perfectly suited to an electric vehicle. 200+ miles on the weekend, then it sits all week.

The 911 has never interested me, I suppose because the price is so high. I don't have a problem with millionaires spending six figures on a car, but I don't fall into that demographic. Without a "cheap" sports car, Porsche isn't attractive to the middle class consumer. I don't know that they are trying to attract us anyway.

I loved the character of the 981, it was exactly what I wanted and I bought it. I'm having a harder time falling in love with the brand.